C-beting at SH micro stakes

    • DiSpirit
      DiSpirit
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2009 Posts: 40
      Hey,

      I play at PokerHeaven NL SH micro stakes (just moved to NL10), when I started, I used to cbet a lot, pretty much whenever possible. However, after some time I noticed that my cbets get called a lot and this cost me money.

      This is way, I'd like to start a discussion about if it's profitable/how often to cbet at SH micro stakes

      Now, from my own observations at these limits usually two kinds of players tends to call cbets a lot:

      1. Bad players who are just so happy to hit something (lowest pair with no kicker is commonly good enough) or even nothing at all and hoping that their J3 will hit something. Cbeting against them tends to be like lottery, even worse, that they sometimes will try to bluff you out of the pot witch, if called, will also greatly increase the pot size and that's not a very good thing if you have air yourself.

      2. Players who has some idea of what their are doing. These players are able to identify cbet and the fact that they are calling gives you almost no reads of what an opponent might have. Furthermore, check on a turn will often let them to bluff you, so without previous reads this again will give you no info of what villain has (if it's bluff or value bet). Gambling again..

      Now, what worked for me, is cbeting only 20-30% of the times when the flop is good for it. Also, playing pretty much straight forward with occasional random moves that makes opponents go like "WTF?!". What this means, is I am really not very hard to read for better players (this makes my cbets almost 100% effective, because I will either take the pot or get good reads on how strong opponents hand is). But at these limits there are also more than enough bad players who just don't get that a value bet can actually be a just a value bet and will try to outplay/bluff you even tho you represent (and have) a strong hand, this of course means money in my BR.

      However, my successes are still short term so far, and I am not sure if it's really the most profitable play. So any ideas about continuation betting at SH would be very helpful
  • 11 replies
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Put Fold to c-bet on your hud?
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Yes, "fold to c-bet" is your friend (and even fold to turn c-bet for regs).

      20-30% is too low imo even for NL10. cbetting is very very VERY profitable, don't pass up on it! cbet more in position, heads-up, and with good dry A/K-high flops. Even against loose fish, because their fish instinct automatically puts you on AK when you raise preflop.

      Obviously cbet your draws (even overcards + gutshot) and barrel good turn scare cards (most overcards to the flop) or those that improve your draw - you still have great equity when called and you still have the initiative.

      OOP you can check/fold more... there's no need to cbet drawy flops that hit their calling range then check/fold the turn.
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      Yep , add fold to c-bet on your HUD and cbet more (I cbet almost 90% of times and the reasons not to cbet must be strong).
      Second barrel is very good against most opponents (bad players may think that, ok he bets on flop - only 60 cents - I call in case he is bluffing. On turn you bet already 1,7 $ - they think: its so much, he cant be bluffing anymore) Also it works well against better players.
      About good boards: every K, A + 2 low cards. Here is second barreling also good because they tend to call on flop with second pairs also , but not so much on turn.
      paired boards are also good. Bad boards are 3 broadway cards, connected board (789).
      But overall, HU you can bet almost every board.
    • RavForenzo
      RavForenzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 293
      I think the trouble he may find is that, I'm aware that only Poker Tracker works on Poker Heaven? (if i'm wrong please tell me then I can use something myself), so without PT he won't have any stats / HUD available which will make this kind of stuff relevant
    • Xtrike
      Xtrike
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.07.2009 Posts: 3
      Does pokertracker have stats on Cbet percentage and money won from Chet?
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      PT3 has Cbet % (on flop, turn, river).
      Btw, having the fold to cbet % is not essential, there are just some general principles to follow (there is also an article about cbetting)
    • DiSpirit
      DiSpirit
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2009 Posts: 40
      Originally posted by kosmonaut111
      Yep , add fold to c-bet on your HUD and cbet more (I cbet almost 90% of times and the reasons not to cbet must be strong).
      Second barrel is very good against most opponents (bad players may think that, ok he bets on flop - only 60 cents - I call in case he is bluffing. On turn you bet already 1,7 $ - they think: its so much, he cant be bluffing anymore) Also it works well against better players.
      About good boards: every K, A + 2 low cards. Here is second barreling also good because they tend to call on flop with second pairs also , but not so much on turn.
      paired boards are also good. Bad boards are 3 broadway cards, connected board (789).
      But overall, HU you can bet almost every board.
      First, Thank you all for responses. At the moment I'm not using any stats/HUD, maybe I will at the next limits, but not now.

      Now, kosmonaut111 how does such approach to cbet work for you in practice (I think I know the theory, and I know I should cbet more), because from what I remember, 90% cbet/second barrels works only for a very short time in session, after this, players (even fish) start to notice that you'r just to aggressive to actually hit that much and they will start calling pretty much everything you do (this is nice, if you hit then, but really expensive, when you don't, and I'd hate to play lottery against them). It's even worse against regulars. And this is a major pain in the ass in a small site like Poker Heaven, where table selection is VERY limited. Before, my sessions usually were like that: going up at first and then continuously losing money, unless I hit a monster against an idiot.
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      havent looked at my statistics so precisely for telling you how good it works. When you see that opponents start calling you more often and raising on flop/turn, you should just lower cbet %.
      Usually havent encountered much resistance with Cbetting high though.

      But if you look from opponents point: they really cant do anything profitable against your Cbetting - you still hit enough often to continue and also you can do something like call flop reraise and bet turn (as a bluff). But remember - when an opponent starts raising you cbets, it doesnt mean he is bluffing, maybe he just hits something, so better is to fold and also lower cbet% against this player. next time he raises you on flop - you have a good hand...

      And now you are cbetting only 30% - that means you are betting when you hit - this is really exploitable. They just can throw their hand away. By cbetting more you dont give any information away on flop.

      And you asked about cbetting on micro stakes - here they usually dont adapt to your cbetting.

      Hope this helps.
    • DiSpirit
      DiSpirit
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2009 Posts: 40
      Originally posted by kosmonaut111
      havent looked at my statistics so precisely for telling you how good it works. When you see that opponents start calling you more often and raising on flop/turn, you should just lower cbet %.
      Usually havent encountered much resistance with Cbetting high though.

      But if you look from opponents point: they really cant do anything profitable against your Cbetting - you still hit enough often to continue and also you can do something like call flop reraise and bet turn (as a bluff). But remember - when an opponent starts raising you cbets, it doesnt mean he is bluffing, maybe he just hits something, so better is to fold and also lower cbet% against this player. next time he raises you on flop - you have a good hand...

      And now you are cbetting only 30% - that means you are betting when you hit - this is really exploitable. They just can throw their hand away. By cbetting more you dont give any information away on flop.

      And you asked about cbetting on micro stakes - here they usually dont adapt to your cbetting.

      Hope this helps.
      Yes, it does help a lot. And it actually makes sense :f_cool: I'll try to gradually increase cbetting % and see what will happen.

      Oh, and for some reason opponents rarely try to exploit my low cbetting. I guess they just think they will hit something that will defeat me (more money for me, hehe) and those times when they do, it's kinda fun/profitable to increase bluffing for a short time :f_grin:
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by RavForenzo
      I think the trouble he may find is that, I'm aware that only Poker Tracker works on Poker Heaven? (if i'm wrong please tell me then I can use something myself), so without PT he won't have any stats / HUD available which will make this kind of stuff relevant
      Since playing short-handed without stats is just giving away your money he might as well invest the money into PokerTracker 3. It's only 30 euros for PokerStrategy members.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by Xtrike
      Does pokertracker have stats on Cbet percentage and money won from Chet?
      You can't get money won from C-bet as a statistic, but you could get it as a report.