[NL2-NL10] JJ nl600 IP

    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      usually id just bet/fold flop here but i am trying to experiment a bit and i knew this guy didnt respect my cbets. and i did have a rather big stack. so i thought potcontrol > protection allthough the board is a bit wet.

      so the big stack and the lack of FE really speaks for checking behind here on the flop imo.

      my reads on opponent are just that he pretty often cold calls and he rarely respects my cbets.

      Created by SharpStats
      Hand#2048014521000467 - Halifax 14521 -- $3/$6 NL Hold'em -- 2009-11-13 - 07:40:05
      Seat 1: papa***1 ($588,00 in chips)
      Seat 2: Olde***2 ($475,93 in chips) DEALER
      Seat 3: stac***3 ($594,00 in chips)
      Seat 4: Gree***4 ($1350,10 in chips)
      Seat 5: hero($157,00 in chips)
      Seat 7: star***7 ($576,06 in chips)
      Seat 8: allw***8 ($627,00 in chips)
      Seat 9: Trit***9 ($318,94 in chips)
      Seat 10: Free***10 ($1330,95 in chips)
      stac***3: posts small blind $3,00
      Gree***4: posts big blind $6,00
      Dealt to hero[Js,Jc]
      hero: raises to $21,00
      star***7: folds
      allw***8: folds
      Trit***9: folds
      Free***10: folds
      papa***1: folds
      Olde***2: folds
      stac***3: calls $18,00
      Gree***4: folds
      *** FLOP *** [3h,4s,Qh]
      stac***3: checks
      hero: checks
      *** TURN *** [6c]
      stac***3: bets $30,00
      hero: calls $30,00
      *** RIVER *** [2s]
      stac***3: bets $543,00 and is all in
      hero: folds
      stac***3: returns uncalled bet $543,00
      ***SHOW DOWN***
      stac***3: mucks
      stac***3: wins $105,00
  • 11 replies
    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
      We don't have any stats, your hand is impossible to analyse properly though.

      Anyway, even without I think we can discuss about your line, especially on the flop. As I'm concerned I do not like check behind with this "might" fragile leading hand here. I would c-bet with JJ 100% of the time here. I don't really think that pot control > protection here, with or without your read. Your stack is not that big (26BB) and you don't want to be outplayed at the turn and river by showing weakness like that.
      There is an exception: if you're playing AA, KK, AQ exactly in the same way here, by checking behind the flop, then it's nice. But I don't think you do, so you see my point.

      At turn you pay his 2/3bet. Here he could make this bet with a big pourcentage of his range of call OOP preflop. As we don't have his stats, it's hard to make a real analyse. But I would suppose that you are likely to be still ahead here. Now relating to your play flop, I think the 3bet here would have transformed your hand in a bluff, and that wasn't a good idea: you still have showdown value. The call turn was the best moove. Fold was out of question obviously. But now by calling turn, you induce yourself to pay another bet river. You know it, and your opponent too.

      If he was (semi-)bluffing turn, he now has two solutions: give away his hand, or try to bluff with an overbet. Here all the bluff's attempts will be overbets: it's the only way for them to win the pot. He knows it, you know it. Better hands will do exactly the same though. Here is a tough decision cause his range is very polarized, and there is more winning hands on it than loosing hands . Without stats and hand history I can't say anything about it, just that he can read you on an underpaire. Just that fold will never be a (big) mistake. It's totally borderline; But I must admit that I do call sometimes on those spot against aggressive tricky reg I'm likely to play against quite often, and after i put a note on them about it. You need 33% équity to make the call ev0.

      Anyway, this is not a safe spot to make money, I do prefer a straight SSS line and c-bet this flop :)

      To conclude, I would just warn you: maybe I misunderstand what the real point beyond all of this, but don't fear your opponents, cause it makes you play scared money, and that makes you play THEIR game. As a consequence, you miss value and loose self-confidence. At those limits, BS regs usually under-estimate your skills ( How can you estimate a 0.5BB/100 wintrate ;) ?), so don't make the same mistake of missjudgement, do not over/under-estimate their skills :)
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      I call river. He puts you on JJ/mid Pocket Pair and knows you will fold it. How often is 55 in his range? He has Qx or Air, mostly Air just following through with his bluff.


      edit; this is given you play a lot like a "normal" shortstack.

      i.e; With your strong hands you would have cbet flop and/OR raised turn. Given your known opening range of AK and TT+ your line by river really looks like TT, JJ or AK as SSS players are normally incapable of playing tricky with their big pairs unless they of course coldcall AA preflop.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      tiger how about if the queen on the flop was an ace instead?

      daphunk would you play flop and turn the same as me?
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Likely, However, It depends how he plays versus our cbet. If he doesn't respect it and calls a lot I like the line;

      Cbet Flop, Check Back Turn, Call his inevitable River Bluff.

      That said, the line above can be very effectively used to make you pay off Qx if he's a good player. His bluff line could also likely be Call Flop, donk OOP Turn.


      If he raises cbets a lot there is really nothing wrong with cbet/call flop.
    • raun
      raun
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 746
      he calls a lot on the flop. yes i suppose you are right guys i maybe should have called river. i guess you are right that your line is better since i'd prefer betting my AQ here on the flop and then most likely checking behind on turn to induce a river bluff depending on board.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Interesting! It would still be better if we had some stats on him so we could work out his range a bit better. Plus I just realised that I forgot quite how often players just call with AA or KK preflop against shorstacks.
    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
      If it was an ace instead, the physionomy of the board would have completely changed. There's a lot of ace on his range, but in yours too.

      But so without stats it's still just theory we're talking about, not poker on NL600 cash tables.

      You might not agree with my way of playing but I would have check behind flop against an unknown with an Ace high flop. So as you can see I'm not playing the same hand the same way relating to the board . But it's because I would also check here with AJ, AQ, AK, AA. I'm not playing the regular SSS, I don't like automatic c-bet that much.


      To talk about the main hand, your fold, again, is not a mistake, and it might have been the right decision.
    • bluffern1
      bluffern1
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 268
      if you call the turn bet you must probably call a blank on the river if BB is aggressive.
    • goldflair03
      goldflair03
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.08.2008 Posts: 1,957
      Originally posted by raun

      so the big stack and the lack of FE really speaks for checking behind here on the flop imo.

      my reads on opponent are just that he pretty often cold calls and he rarely respects my cbets.

      if he calls/bluffraise a lot of overcards/smaller pockets i would prefer b/cing flop for value.

      if u think that he'll mostly just call with better hands u're c-bet, then i like the check behind/ call turn / reevaluate river-line more
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Hi raun,

      according to your reads he is cold calls loose preflop and seldom fold to your c-bet, so I would clearly c-bet this flop for value against such an opponent.

      My whole line would be c-bet 25$ on the flop, half pot on the turn and cb river. If villain would raise anywhere I would fold.

      As played, calling turn is obvious, but on the river I prefer to fold, because I think he will often have a better hand there, it's not a very good board to bluff and your range is very strong thus he shouldn't expect too much FE. So, without reads on him being aggressive I would fold.

      Cheers,
      burek2000
    • ysessa
      ysessa
      Basic
      Joined: 11.07.2008 Posts: 1,331
      Easy b/c flop against villain, since the board has no draws and only 2 overcards you dont want to see, but will slow him down, i would check the turn and call any river bet. As played easy Rivercall your hand is written in the chat when you fold here, you fold your entire range think about it.