Should I have been able to fold my pocket Qs?

    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Hi,

      I know that this type of post belongs on the sample hands board, but I do not have bronze status and so am not yet able to post there. I have a small question regarding a hand I had in a FR 0.10/0.20 Fixed Limit game:

      I raised QQ pre-flop in position and had two callers

      The flop came 3 T T

      The two callers checked to me and I bet

      One player folded, the other check-raised

      I went into calldown mode and called him all the way to the showdown (he bet both the turn and the river which were both low rags)

      I knew he had a ten, and sure enough he ended up showing me down with KTo

      My question is should I have folded the flop, or at worst folded when the turn didn't show a Q, knowing that I was beat and only had 2 outs? I most definitely wasn't getting the pot odds to call, but found it so hard to lay down a big overpair, even on a paired board.

      Thanks
  • 12 replies
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      HI Kknight!

      First of all: Did you play this hand on a No Limit or fixed limit table? If it was No Limit I have to say that it is difficult to evaluate your hand without knowing the bet and raise sizes. Also the stack sizes and the history of the table might be important. But I´ll try my very best ;) Since I am a No Limit player I analyze your hand from that point of view:
      I think your preflopplay and flopplay is ok. You cannot fold QQ against a checkraise on that board (except your opponent is very passive and normally doesnt checkraise - but even then its close). On the turn it depends on how big his bet is and how much you both have left. If his bet commits at least one of you to the pot I would fold because you can be sure he has a T. But against an aggressive opponent and/or a decent bet you can also be up against a small to medium pocket pair or JJ. That could make it worth to call also on the turn. On the river you have to decide again depending on the bet and stack sizes if you call or fold here.

      I hope this helps. Besides that I strongly recommend that you read our strategy articles, pass our quiz, listen to coachings and post more of your hands in our sample hands forum :D

      Good luck at the tables
      Puschkin81
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Hi Puschkin81,

      Thank you for your reply and insight. As to your questions:

      The game was Fixed Limit $0.10/0.20 Full-Ring. The opponents are unfamiliar, I had just sat down at the table a few hands earlier.

      I have read all of the articles in the beginner section (several times) and have passed the quiz. I am a US player and can't play at Party or Titan...but I see that you just added Full Tilt, so I may look into getting an account there so that I can achieve Bronze status and start posting in the sample hands forum. I currently play at PokerStars and have been profitable thanks to the beginner articles and Starting Hands Chart.

      Thank you again for your help,
      Kknight
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi Kknight!

      Since it was a fixed limit game just forget my analysis because it is worthless :D I will ask someone else if he can analyze your hand.

      Concerning your Full Tilt Poker account: It is not yet possible to collect StrategyPoints at Full Tilt. At the moment we are working on a solution with Full Tilt. It should be possible soon. We will let you know in the news. But feel free to open an account on Full Tilt with our Bonuscode "PSVIP".

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Gaichuke
      Gaichuke
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2007 Posts: 47
      Just my amateur opinion, but what the hell:

      Check-raise is usually powerful move indicating trips in this board.

      QQ is too powerful hand to fold in my opinion here, so if you call down you must pay 2.5 BB to see if your hand is still good.

      My advice would be to 3-bet the flop and take a freecard in turn (of course bet if a Q shows up) if he just calls. That way you would have to pay only 2 BB to see the result of this deal. Of course, it doesn't always go this way, he'll probably cap the flop, but then you can call it and fold turn unimproved. This way you must pay 1.5 BB to see the turn, but now you know almost certainly that you're beaten anyway and you can fold and save 1 BB.

      NOTICE: I'm only a beginner like yourself, so I'm not sure if this is the smartest move in this situation!!!

      EDIT: I AM A FISH
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Puschkin - Thank you again, I'll definitely keep my eye on the news. I look forward to being able to achieve Bronze Status and continue my education. Even what I've learned from just the beginner articles has been tremendously helpful.

      Gaichuke - Thanks for the input. Sounds like a reasonable approach to me. I was kind of reluctant to 3-bet the flop, but I don't know...I guess at the least it gives me more information :)

      Thanks again both of you!
      Kknight
    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      there is an extra forum for questions like this one :)
      i don´t know if you can already right there but you should be bronze soon

      then you should read this:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.org.uk/wbb_en/thread.php?threadid=4861
      and post your hand here:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.org.uk/wbb_en/board.php?boardid=1383

      then we will try to help you

      so:
      its a bit hard to say what would have been the best play without knowing the exact board aso.
      but the standard play should be to 3-bet the flop (he can check/raise this board with every pair or just 2 high cards). bet the turn and the river.
      call down if he caps the flop or shows some other kind of resistance
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Hi frzl,

      Thanks for the reply. Do you think it is likely to see a check-raise with any pair or two high cards even at this $0.10/0.20 level? I have found most of the opponents at the micro-limits to be pretty straight forward...and have only seen check-raises with strong hands.

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      thats a good point and i´ve always mentioned this problem in the sample hands forum because most of the time everybody just says what he would do in this situation at his own homelimit :P
      but nevertheless i think its a clear 3-bet here. your hand is just too strong.

      i haven´t played this limit for a long time but what i remember is that i couldn´t really read my opponents hands when i saw their actions because they are just playing wild and most of the time they don´t even know what they are doing ;)

      but one thing: many straight forward players would donk their trips.

      so we have some players here at the board who can tell you more about the mirco limits at party but i can assure you that a 3-bet isn´t a mistake here and when you move up in limits (and you will) it will be standard play to do so.
    • Gaichuke
      Gaichuke
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2007 Posts: 47
      I have a question:

      What if he had donk the flop? We raise, and then he 3-bets. Should we cap? Is the situation different then?
    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      if we are heads up then i think i would call him down after the 3-bet.
      really looks like 88,99 or a T so i think its a bit like wa/wb

      not sure about this ^^
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      For the beginners in this forum: wa/wb = a situation where you are way ahead or way behind.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Good deal...thanks again everyone.

      frzl - While I'm still nervous about a 3-bet here, I can understand why it should be done and I will certainly defer to your level of experience on this one. You can be sure I'll fire away with a 3-bet next time :)

      Finally, I hope it's OK that I post a hand or two in this New Member forum. I won't post a whole lot, but I'd like to be able to get at least a little analysis here while I'm waiting for the opportunity to become a Bronze member and post in the sample hand forum. I trust the advice that I get here at PokerStrategy far more than what I'd get elsewhere (2+2 or Cardschat or whatever.)

      Thanks again,
      Kknight