[NL20-NL50] 50NL SH QQ OOP vs coldcall3bet

    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop

      UTG ($58.60)
      MP ($50.15)
      CO ($50)
      Button ($50)
      Gerv (SB) ($64.70)
      BB ($64.85)



      Preflop: Gerv is SB with Q, Q
      2 folds, CO bets $1.50, 1 fold, Gerv raises $5.75, BB calls $5.50, 1 fold

      Flop: ($13.50) 8, 2, 3 (2 players)
      Gerv bets $9, BB calls $9

      Turn: ($31.50) 6 (2 players)
      Gerv bets $18, BB raises $40, Gerv raises $31.70 (All-In), BB calls $9.70


      I wasn't so sure about Turnplay but I decided to go for it but I doubted if he would do this with JJ-TT and airball imo
  • 11 replies
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Turnplay but I decided to go for it but I doubted if he would do this with JJ-TT and airball imo
      JJ-TT he will raise on flop imo

      cant see air there no draws on flop (except 45s but with his stats he dont have 45 there 99,9%) 88 or 66 is mu pick

      i'll check that turn couse i want him to call me on river and i cant see him caling on that flop just with over cards and backdorr str8draw if he have AQ, AK type of hand
      so if he have over cards u he got 6 outs max for AK with 1 card to came on river, 3 outs for AJs AQ, or if he have something like 77, 99 he have only 2 outs and he has from 12%-6%-4% chances to to hit that card so i like mine chances i dont like him to fold 99, 77 there or AK, AQ, AJ, and i'm hoping that J will hit on river or board will pairs so he can call me on river light
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I wouldn´t fol there QQ
      Set is possible, but I think he´d often also play TT/JJ that way
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      but I think he´d often also play TT/JJ that way
      would u play tt-jj that way or u'll raise flop??? i think caling on that flop is bad with tt-jj oop
      what do u think about cheking turn behind??
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      but I think he´d often also play TT/JJ that way
      would u play tt-jj that way or u'll raise flop??? i think caling on that flop is bad with tt-jj oop
      what do u think about cheking turn behind??
      against aggressive player I´d likely get all-in TT/JJ pf, if I called pf then raise flop.
      But it doesn´t really matter how I´d play JJ/TT, but how would 43/15 who has wtsd 48%- so likely fish, play his hands on that point.
      You loose too much value if you check back QQ on the turn. Imo it is easy b/c
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      but I think he´d often also play TT/JJ that way
      would u play tt-jj that way or u'll raise flop??? i think caling on that flop is bad with tt-jj oop
      what do u think about cheking turn behind??
      against aggressive player I´d likely get all-in TT/JJ pf, if I called pf then raise flop.
      But it doesn´t really matter how I´d play JJ/TT, but how would 43/15 who has wtsd 48%- so likely fish, play his hands on that point.
      You loose too much value if you check back QQ on the turn. Imo it is easy b/c
      yea u loose value for sure but that 6 is no that scary i want to check for bluf induce on river vs fish and caling me light on river with A hi and second pair but i bet QQ moust of the time in that spot and when i get reraised in this spot i'll more likely to make a tough fold on turn couse i cant see that flish blufing there, and if he is raising with TT-JJ there he thinks that he have the best hand ->and thats no bluf in his eyes ;) so i cant see him ever bluf there only hands that i can beat is A8 ( posible Ac8c for top pair and flush draw) 99-JJ and i dont like to risk my money to find out did he have this type of hand

      about that JJ-TT think i just want to know do u think taht JJ-TT is good to play that way as u say that he might be palying it
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Imo b/f turn is big mistake, since his range for getting all-in is a lot wider than two pair hands. He can easily hold there 8x+flushdraw or any pp that he don´t want to see turn card, so he decides to raise himself thinking he is ahead.
      But if you think he is always raising there with two pair b/f is very reasonable line on the turn.
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      This is another theorem from the the 2006 period. A poster at the 2+2 forum named “BalugaWhale” put forward this handy theorem that should help with a common yet tricky situation on the turn.

      The Baluga theorem requires a little more explanation (see the example below) than most poker theorems as it is a little more detailed, but it should be too hard to grasp. In a nutshell though, the Baluga theorem states that:

      “You should strongly re-evaluate the strength of one-pair hands in the face of a raise on the turn.”
      Baluga Theorem Reference.

      Here is an example of where the Baluga Whale theorem commonly comes into play to help explain what this theorem means.
      Baluga theorem example.

      Your Hand: As Kd

      You are one of the first to act before the flop, and with your hand you decide to make a 4BB raise. There is just one caller in late position and you both go to the flop.

      The Flop: Ah 9c 3d

      This is pretty much an ideal flop, so you bet 8BBs, which is around the size of the pot.

      The Turn: Ah 9c 3d 7c

      The 7c is pretty much a harmless card, but it does bring along the flush and straight draw possibility, so a strong ¾ pot size bet is in order here to give any drawing hands the wrong odds to call. However, our opponent raises this bet and the action is back on us.

      This has turned the hand on it's head and we are left in a tricky situation. Throughout the hand we never really considered the fact that our opponent has us beat, as it has been all about getting the most from our top pair.


      According the the BalugaWhale theorem, we should strongly reconsider the strength of our pair due to this turn raise, and we should be looking to fold the majority of the time in this spot.

      Baluga theorem example hand history.

      $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em cash game - 6 Players

      SB: $100
      BB: $100.00
      Hero (UTG): $100
      MP: $100
      CO: $100
      BTN: $100

      Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG with As Kd
      Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, CO calls $4, 3 folds

      Flop: ($9.50) Ah 9c 3d (2 players)
      Hero bets $8, CO calls $8

      Turn: ($25.50) 7c (2 players)
      Hero bets $20, CO raises to $65, Hero folds

      Why is the Baluga theorem effective?

      It is easy to see why the Baluga theorem is effective by asking yourself the following question:

      Would our opponent be raising this turn with anything less than top pair?

      The simple answer is no. Any turn raise is going to show a significant amount of strength, and a weak top pair or worse is not going to warrant this sort of display of strength. I'm sure that you can feel how much of an awkward situation this is when you hold top pair top kicker, but we both know that folding is going to be the best move here the majority of the time.

      One of the biggest problems is that we are out of position, which means the information we have on our opponent is limited. You can try and convince yourself that the turn card was harmless and how might you like to think that your opponent is aggressively playing a draw, but at the end of it all you can't get away from the fact that you are in an uncomfortable situation where calling is likely to be a losing play over the long run.

      If you decide to call on the turn, what are you going to do on the river? Your opponent is almost definitely going to be betting out as a bluff or betting with the best hand, so closing your eyes and calling the turn bet whilst hoping for the best on the river isn't going to be a great strategy.
      Is the Baluga theorem still effective today?

      Yes. I would say that the Baluga theorem is one of a small number of theorems that you should take note of and incorporate into your Texas Hold'em game.
      Who is BalugaWhale?

      Andrew "BalugaWhale" Seidman is a pretty well known name around the 2+2 forums. Andrew is a professional high stakes poker player and currently coaches over at the Deuces Cracked training site (see BalugaWhale Deuces Cracked coach).


      For what it's worth, yes, "Baluga" is a misspelling of "Beluga". Not sure if this misspelling was actually intentional, but that's the way it stands.
      Baluga Whale theorem overview.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      The big difference sir is that your example hand with your balgua theory ( I got his e-book ) it is a 2bet pot while my sample hand is a 3bet pot

      Check for bluff induce against that kind of AFq/AF guy is ridiculous imo, he checks back way too many hands that u beat hence can get value from
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      but I think he´d often also play TT/JJ that way
      would u play tt-jj that way or u'll raise flop??? i think caling on that flop is bad with tt-jj oop
      what do u think about cheking turn behind??
      against aggressive player I´d likely get all-in TT/JJ pf, if I called pf then raise flop.
      But it doesn´t really matter how I´d play JJ/TT, but how would 43/15 who has wtsd 48%- so likely fish, play his hands on that point.
      You loose too much value if you check back QQ on the turn. Imo it is easy b/c
      yea u loose value for sure but that 6 is no that scary i want to check for bluf induce on river vs fish and caling me light on river with A hi and second pair but i bet QQ moust of the time in that spot and when i get reraised in this spot i'll more likely to make a tough fold on turn couse i cant see that flish blufing there, and if he is raising with TT-JJ there he thinks that he have the best hand ->and thats no bluf in his eyes ;) so i cant see him ever bluf there only hands that i can beat is A8 ( posible Ac8c for top pair and flush draw) 99-JJ and i dont like to risk my money to find out did he have this type of hand

      about that JJ-TT think i just want to know do u think taht JJ-TT is good to play that way as u say that he might be palying it
      TheRebuz This is another theorem from the the 2006 period. A poster at the 2+2 forum named “BalugaWhale” put forward this handy theorem that should help with a common yet tricky situation on the turn. The Baluga theorem requires a little more explanation (see the example below) than most poker theorems as it is a little more detailed, but it should be too hard to grasp. In a nutshell though, the Baluga theorem states that: “You should strongly re-evaluate the strength of one-pair hands in the face of a raise on the turn.” Baluga Theorem Reference. Here is an example of where the Baluga Whale theorem commonly comes into play to help explain what this theorem means. Baluga theorem example. Your Hand: As Kd You are one of the first to act before the flop, and with your hand you decide to make a 4BB raise. There is just one caller in late position and you both go to the flop. The Flop: Ah 9c 3d This is pretty much an ideal flop, so you bet 8BBs, which is around the size of the pot. The Turn: Ah 9c 3d 7c The 7c is pretty much a harmless card, but it does bring along the flush and straight draw possibility, so a strong ¾ pot size bet is in order here to give any drawing hands the wrong odds to call. However, our opponent raises this bet and the action is back on us. This has turned the hand on it's head and we are left in a tricky situation. Throughout the hand we never really considered the fact that our opponent has us beat, as it has been all about getting the most from our top pair. According the the BalugaWhale theorem, we should strongly reconsider the strength of our pair due to this turn raise, and we should be looking to fold the majority of the time in this spot. Baluga theorem example hand history. $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em cash game - 6 Players SB: $100 BB: $100.00 Hero (UTG): $100 MP: $100 CO: $100 BTN: $100 Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG with As Kd Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, CO calls $4, 3 folds Flop: ($9.50) Ah 9c 3d (2 players) Hero bets $8, CO calls $8 Turn: ($25.50) 7c (2 players) Hero bets $20, CO raises to $65, Hero folds Why is the Baluga theorem effective? It is easy to see why the Baluga theorem is effective by asking yourself the following question: Would our opponent be raising this turn with anything less than top pair? The simple answer is no. Any turn raise is going to show a significant amount of strength, and a weak top pair or worse is not going to warrant this sort of display of strength. I'm sure that you can feel how much of an awkward situation this is when you hold top pair top kicker, but we both know that folding is going to be the best move here the majority of the time. One of the biggest problems is that we are out of position, which means the information we have on our opponent is limited. You can try and convince yourself that the turn card was harmless and how might you like to think that your opponent is aggressively playing a draw, but at the end of it all you can't get away from the fact that you are in an uncomfortable situation where calling is likely to be a losing play over the long run. If you decide to call on the turn, what are you going to do on the river? Your opponent is almost definitely going to be betting out as a bluff or betting with the best hand, so closing your eyes and calling the turn bet whilst hoping for the best on the river isn't going to be a great strategy. Is the Baluga theorem still effective today? Yes. I would say that the Baluga theorem is one of a small number of theorems that you should take note of and incorporate into your Texas Hold'em game. Who is BalugaWhale? Andrew "BalugaWhale" Seidman is a pretty well known name around the 2+2 forums. Andrew is a professional high stakes poker player and currently coaches over at the Deuces Cracked training site (see BalugaWhale Deuces Cracked coach). For what it's worth, yes, "Baluga" is a misspelling of "Beluga". Not sure if this misspelling was actually intentional, but that's the way it stands. Baluga Whale theorem overview.


      SORRY I posted in WRONG HAND :) ) i mix it up. u cant check ur QQ there OOP
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      you can´t apply Baluga Theorem in 3-bet pots, since players would most of the times get all-in light thinking either you doesn´t have anything or they hope to have fold equity.
    • BogdanDin7
      BogdanDin7
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2008 Posts: 1,114
      3-bet and 4-bet pot are different than normal pots because the ranges of both you and villain get tighter. So given this you will often have cases when villain sais "well AK is a big part of his range so I like my odds". I don`t know if it`s a "theorem" or anything like this but for me top pair or better is a 4-bet pot = nuts. In 3-bet pot mostly the same appiles except cases of very ugly boards.