[NL20-NL50] 50NL SH QQ 4betpot

    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop

      Gerv (MP) ($55.45)
      CO ($61.35)




      Button ($59.55)
      SB ($70.60)

      BB ($49.75)
      18/12, cc%8


      UTG ($41.80)

      Preflop: Gerv is MP with Q, Q
      1 fold, Gerv bets $1.75, CO raises $3, 2 folds, BB calls $2.50, Gerv raises to $10, CO calls $7, 1 fold

      Flop: ($23.25) 6, 8, 9 (2 players)
      Gerv bets $14, 1 fold


      1* should my 4bet be bigger than $10??
      2* What is CO's range ?( I decided to go for it if he 2bets my Flop cBet

      nh?
  • 20 replies
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      .
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      yea NH lol

      BUT
      U GOT TO BET BIGER ON THAT FLOP WITH THAT ACTION BEFORE 18$ is my pick, and if he shoves u got to fold ur QQ cant be much of a favorite on that board.
      if he have something like A :spade: K :spade: ur underdog u can beat only JJ-TT there, and vs 77 is close to even money, sets r crushing u

      10$-12$ is nice

      CO range IMO AA-QQ = NO 95% of time
      IP
      AK, AQs, 88-JJ if he is tighter
      AQ, ATs, 22-JJ if he is looser,
      ANY 2 REASONBLE PLAYBLE CARDS if he is gambler (i can see that he have VP$IP 60%)
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      For leverage sake, I just wasted $4 then if I bet $18. But I was playing cBet/call 100% on the Flop, no way that I invest 50% of my stack to be folding, equitywise would that be suicide
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by Gerv
      For leverage sake, I just wasted $4 then if I bet $18. But I was playing cBet/call 100% on the Flop, no way that I invest 50% of my stack to be folding, equitywise would that be suicide
      U DONT GOT EQ IF UR DRAWING ALMOUST DEAD in best case he will have somethig like A :spade: K :spade: and thats even money.
      AND U GOT TO KNOW WHEN UR BEAT AND FOLD UR HAND AWAY

      i agree that maybe 18$ is big, but that 14$ looks like litle to me
    • nttflox
      nttflox
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2007 Posts: 673
      Folding after a c-bet would be the worst move ever. You have 43% equity versus 66+, AK :spade: and AJ :spade: and you only need like 25% to make a call.
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by nttflox
      Folding after a c-bet would be the worst move ever. You have 43% equity versus 66+, AK :spade: and AJ :spade: and you only need like 25% to make a call.
      are u fish my frend? what AsJs what JJ

      this is his range if he is trapin /slowplaying AA-KK preflop and if he shoves with TT and 77 on that flop
      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 35,275 % 34,112 % 2,326 % 63,562 % QsQd
      Player 2: 64,725 % 63,562 % 2,326 % 34,112 % KK+, TT-66, AsKs



      vs TT
      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 76,692 % 76,313 % 0,758 % 22,929 % QsQd
      Player 2: 23,308 % 22,929 % 0,758 % 76,313 % TT

      vs 77
      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 64,596 % 63,838 % 1,515 % 34,646 % QsQd
      Player 2: 35,404 % 34,646 % 1,515 % 63,838 % 77

      that line preflop looks realy strong to me MP open raise, CO rerase, BB coldcall 3 bet OOP, MP 4bet OOP vs CO, CO calls..... so u cant expect that CO will shove light on that flop

      this is CO real range if he shoves flop
      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 18,737 % 17,283 % 2,909 % 79,808 % QsQd
      Player 2: 81,263 % 79,808 % 2,909 % 17,283 % 99-88, 66, AsKs
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by Gerv
      But I was playing cBet/call 100% on the Flop, no way that I invest 50% of my stack to be folding, equitywise would that be suicide ?( WTF
      AND BTW IMO THIS IS NOT A TOURNEY THIS IS CASH GAME AND U DONT GOT TO CALL COUSE U INVEST 50% OF UR STACK WHEN U R LIKE 90%+ SURE THAT UR DRAWING ALMOUST DEAD THOSE $$$ IS NOT LONGER URS THEY BELONG TO POT.

      WHAT IF U WERE 200BB DEEP???
      u bet flop and he calls?? then what??
      turn 2 :heart: your line???
      turn :spade: your line??
      turn A or K your line???
      turn A :spade: or K :spade: your line??
      turn T or 5 your line???
      turn any card u like (except Q) your line???

      lets say when u Cbet on turn CO shoves and when u check turn he bets 5/7 pot??? WHAT WOULD U DO????


      u can lose less $$$.
      what is ur EQ here, and how can this play be profitable???

      COACH ME COACH.....
    • BogdanDin7
      BogdanDin7
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2008 Posts: 1,114
      Wow , what`s with the attitude ?

      Well first I would make it a little bigger preflop just because your OOP. Smthing like 11-12 myb. On the flop I like a smaller cbet size just to make him fool himself into shoving lighter. I think that way his shoving range will be at least 66+, AsKs . You got too good odds to fold there .
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      Originally posted by Gerv
      But I was playing cBet/call 100% on the Flop, no way that I invest 50% of my stack to be folding, equitywise would that be suicide ?( WTF
      AND BTW IMO THIS IS NOT A TOURNEY THIS IS CASH GAME AND U DONT GOT TO CALL COUSE U INVEST 50% OF UR STACK WHEN U R LIKE 90%+ SURE THAT UR DRAWING ALMOUST DEAD THOSE $$$ IS NOT LONGER URS THEY BELONG TO POT.

      WHAT IF U WERE 200BB DEEP???
      u bet flop and he calls?? then what??
      turn 2 :heart: your line???
      turn :spade: your line??
      turn A or K your line???
      turn A :spade: or K :spade: your line??
      turn T or 5 your line???
      turn any card u like (except Q) your line???

      lets say when u Cbet on turn CO shoves and when u check turn he bets 5/7 pot??? WHAT WOULD U DO????


      u can lose less $$$.
      what is ur EQ here, and how can this play be profitable???

      COACH ME COACH.....
      TheRebuz i understand you have your point of view but you should post it in a normal way.
      There are a lot of situations in Poker where your action is based completely on your assumptions, if your assumptions differ from someone elses that's ok.
      But according to Rule 1: No insults i advise you:
      Please don't be that aggressive with your postings, otherwise you risk to get a yellow card.

      Btw. i think JJ and TT are definitely in his preflop-coldcalling and in his raisingrange at this flop.
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by Bierbaer
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      Originally posted by Gerv
      But I was playing cBet/call 100% on the Flop, no way that I invest 50% of my stack to be folding, equitywise would that be suicide ?( WTF
      AND BTW IMO THIS IS NOT A TOURNEY THIS IS CASH GAME AND U DONT GOT TO CALL COUSE U INVEST 50% OF UR STACK WHEN U R LIKE 90%+ SURE THAT UR DRAWING ALMOUST DEAD THOSE $$$ IS NOT LONGER URS THEY BELONG TO POT.

      WHAT IF U WERE 200BB DEEP???
      u bet flop and he calls?? then what??
      turn 2 :heart: your line???
      turn :spade: your line??
      turn A or K your line???
      turn A :spade: or K :spade: your line??
      turn T or 5 your line???
      turn any card u like (except Q) your line???

      lets say when u Cbet on turn CO shoves and when u check turn he bets 5/7 pot??? WHAT WOULD U DO????


      u can lose less $$$.
      what is ur EQ here, and how can this play be profitable???

      COACH ME COACH.....
      TheRebuz i understand you have your point of view but you should post it in a normal way.
      There are a lot of situations in Poker where your action is based completely on your assumptions, if your assumptions differ from someone elses that's ok.
      But according to Rule 1: No insults i advise you:
      Please don't be that aggressive with your postings, otherwise you risk to get a yellow card.

      Btw. i think JJ and TT are definitely in his preflop-coldcalling and in his raisingrange at this flop.
      what insults???? what agresion??? yellow card???
      are u people serious.
      i'm not posting at this forum any more.
      have a nice live.
      gl at the tables.

      BTW. sorry if some1 was ofended, i dint mean it, maybe is all lost in translation LOOLLL ROFL this coments are sick, sorry again gl we might see ich other at the tables
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Completely off-topic at the moment:

      I'm a ShortStack Coach and thus I am learning ShortHanded at the moment and therefore I am open for discussions about this topic but the way I see it from the get-go is that you want to prove your point which is ok.

      But the manner you do it is provocating aggression by using capitals, sentences like ''coach me coach''

      I'm a coach, a human and therefore I can interpet or get things completely wrong. And that's why I keep asking questions about things until a certain point where I either get it. or the other side is at its boiling point

      I thank you for your responses, I will completely ignore any thing that I might interpret offensive and just look at the technical arguments given.

      - Gerv
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      omg, are we really discusing a fold here? overpair in 4bet pot against a 60/26 ? really?
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      what insults???? what agresion??? yellow card???
      are u people serious.
      i'm not posting at this forum any more.
      have a nice live.
      gl at the tables.

      BTW. sorry if some1 was ofended, i dint mean it, maybe is all lost in translation LOOLLL ROFL this coments are sick, sorry again gl we might see ich other at the tables
      You are not getting a yellow card.
      I was just saying that the way you posted seems a bit aggressive and i asked you to try and be a bit calmer when it comes to different opinions about specific poker situations.

      No offense intended :) .
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      omg, are we really discusing a fold here? overpair in 4bet pot against a 60/26 ? really?
      wow ur right i dint see that stats, no fold here if he shoves

      ps. GERV sorry if i offend u some how i dint mean to do that, thats my stile of posting nothing personal, coach me coach (maybe it sounds litle arogant i gues)-> i mean to tell me why u wont fold there. is that just couse that u have invest $$ in pot and ur eq is good,( I dont see that EQ thing in that way couse u can reload any time in cash game)
      and BTW thats why i ask what would u do if u were like 150-200 bb deep and this hapens::
      u bet flop and he calls?? then what??
      turn 2 Heart your line???
      turn Spade your line??
      turn A or K your line???
      turn A Spade or K Spade your line??
      turn T or 5 your line???
      turn any card u like (except Q) your line???

      lets say when u Cbet on turn CO shoves and when u check turn he bets 5/7 pot??? THOUGHTS???
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      against that player it is easy b/c in 4-way pot.
      He could really hold there anything since he is too loose and putting your on AK hoping you´re folding if he is shoving any pair or draw.
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      u think that if u r 2 -> 200bb deep
      and on any TURN except Q of course when u bet vilain reraise or shoves
      and when u check he bet like 5/7 pot u should call with QQ???
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by TheRebuz
      u think that if u r 2 -> 200bb deep
      and on any TURN except Q of course when u bet vilain reraise or shoves
      and when u check he bet like 5/7 pot u should call with QQ???
      200bb deep it is a littlebit different, but in 4-bet pot I think we should go with our hand
      People are not really calling 4-bets that light and we hold overpair on drawy board, which might make him shove there worse overpairs.
      If flop goes b/c, then my line would be c/c blank turn and evaluate river if we have enough money ahead or c/rai if we´re pot committed.
    • TheRebuz
      TheRebuz
      Platinum
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      The Baluga theorem requires a little more explanation (see the example below) than most poker theorems as it is a little more detailed, but it should be too hard to grasp. In a nutshell though, the Baluga theorem states that:

      “You should strongly re-evaluate the strength of one-pair hands in the face of a raise on the turn.”
      Baluga Theorem Reference.

      Here is an example of where the Baluga Whale theorem commonly comes into play to help explain what this theorem means.
      Baluga theorem example.

      Your Hand: As Kd

      You are one of the first to act before the flop, and with your hand you decide to make a 4BB raise. There is just one caller in late position and you both go to the flop.

      The Flop: Ah 9c 3d

      This is pretty much an ideal flop, so you bet 8BBs, which is around the size of the pot.

      The Turn: Ah 9c 3d 7c

      The 7c is pretty much a harmless card, but it does bring along the flush and straight draw possibility, so a strong ¾ pot size bet is in order here to give any drawing hands the wrong odds to call. However, our opponent raises this bet and the action is back on us.

      This has turned the hand on it's head and we are left in a tricky situation. Throughout the hand we never really considered the fact that our opponent has us beat, as it has been all about getting the most from our top pair.


      According the the BalugaWhale theorem, we should strongly reconsider the strength of our pair due to this turn raise, and we should be looking to fold the majority of the time in this spot.

      Baluga theorem example hand history.

      $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em cash game - 6 Players

      SB: $100
      BB: $100.00
      Hero (UTG): $100
      MP: $100
      CO: $100
      BTN: $100

      Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG with As Kd
      Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, CO calls $4, 3 folds

      Flop: ($9.50) Ah 9c 3d (2 players)
      Hero bets $8, CO calls $8

      Turn: ($25.50) 7c (2 players)
      Hero bets $20, CO raises to $65, Hero folds

      Why is the Baluga theorem effective?

      It is easy to see why the Baluga theorem is effective by asking yourself the following question:

      Would our opponent be raising this turn with anything less than top pair?

      The simple answer is no. Any turn raise is going to show a significant amount of strength, and a weak top pair or worse is not going to warrant this sort of display of strength. I'm sure that you can feel how much of an awkward situation this is when you hold top pair top kicker, but we both know that folding is going to be the best move here the majority of the time.

      One of the biggest problems is that we are out of position, which means the information we have on our opponent is limited. You can try and convince yourself that the turn card was harmless and how might you like to think that your opponent is aggressively playing a draw, but at the end of it all you can't get away from the fact that you are in an uncomfortable situation where calling is likely to be a losing play over the long run.

      If you decide to call on the turn, what are you going to do on the river? Your opponent is almost definitely going to be betting out as a bluff or betting with the best hand, so closing your eyes and calling the turn bet whilst hoping for the best on the river isn't going to be a great strategy.
      Is the Baluga theorem still effective today?

      Yes. I would say that the Baluga theorem is one of a small number of theorems that you should take note of and incorporate into your Texas Hold'em game.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      same reasons as I already posted you can´t apply baluga theorem in 4-bet pots. And I´m not really sure what is your question?
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