Worth playing AK?

    • A1rborne
      A1rborne
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      Joined: 13.04.2009 Posts: 5
      Imagine a situation where you hold AK and raise 4BB and there's a reraise behind you. So is it worth to go all-in? because i think its not, hands like AQ and worse will not call your all-in and they are not likely to make a reraise in this situation. Against AA and KK you're hopelessly behind and against any other pair its like 54:46 not in your favour, you would be still behind. So the question is why is it still profitable?
  • 15 replies
    • A1rborne
      A1rborne
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      Joined: 13.04.2009 Posts: 5
      I'm talking about low limits BSS.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
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      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Originally posted by A1rborne
      I'm talking about low limits BSS.
      Why would you shove BSS?

      Imagine this: you and villan have 100bb stacks.

      You raise 4bb get 3bet to 12bb leaving if you shove your raising an adtional 88bb!!! which is like a 7bet (Im going to call it a tard raise/shove).

      Now if you and villan only have 50bb stacks its an instant shove if you get 3bet as 4bb + his 12bb = 16bb (lets asume he calls if you shove) 16bb+38bb= 54bb in the pot, you'r shove costs an adtional 46bb (so if you have 46% equity or better you shove)

      Thats the math of it, you have you remember when you bet and get raised that money isnt you bet isnt yours anymore its part of the pot.


      Ofcoure though Things varrie depending on if its an S&G or cash game. I asume you are talking about a cash game?
    • A1rborne
      A1rborne
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      Joined: 13.04.2009 Posts: 5
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      Originally posted by A1rborne
      I'm talking about low limits BSS.
      Why would you shove BSS?

      Imagine this: you and villan have 100bb stacks.

      You raise 4bb get 3bet to 12bb leaving if you shove your raising an adtional 88bb!!! which is like a 7bet (Im going to call it a tard raise/shove).

      Now if you and villan only have 50bb stacks its an instant shove if you get 3bet as 4bb + his 12bb = 16bb (lets asume he calls if you shove) 16bb+38bb= 54bb in the pot, you'r shove costs an adtional 46bb (so if you have 46% equity or better you shove)

      Thats the math of it, you have you remember when you bet and get raised that money isnt you bet isnt yours anymore its part of the pot.


      Ofcoure though Things varrie depending on if its an S&G or cash game. I asume you are talking about a cash game?
      Yea, i'm talking about a cash game. So, what is the best for me to do if we both have 100bb stack? Raise his 3bet and call his all-in? and if he just calls my raise make a continuation bet with the rest of my stack? these two variants sounds pretty much the same to me
    • michaelqian
      michaelqian
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      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 512
      I always call his re-raise, I definitely think it's not worth getting 100BB all in with AK.

      You raise 4BB, get re-raised 12BB, you call 8BB.

      You are out of position, depending on the flop, you can conti-bet, conti-bet when you hit a K or A or better, or c/f when board is ugly.

      Your opponent is more likely to have AK as well rather than AA or KK, if you fold to his re-raise preflop, you are giving up a pot to the same hand as yours.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
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      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Originally posted by michaelqian
      I always call his re-raise, I definitely think it's not worth getting 100BB all in with AK.

      You raise 4BB, get re-raised 12BB, you call 8BB.

      You are out of position, depending on the flop, you can conti-bet, conti-bet when you hit a K or A or better, or c/f when board is ugly.

      Your opponent is more likely to have AK as well rather than AA or KK, if you fold to his re-raise preflop, you are giving up a pot to the same hand as yours.
      The range is bigger than just AA KK AK. 100bb stack calling is correct. 50bb stack or less shoving is correct. Agreed foldind isnt an option.
    • andyb43
      andyb43
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      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 903
      Call......why keep reraising/thinking about all in?

      BSS means that you have to play poker post flop as well as pre flop
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
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      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Originally posted by andyb43
      Call......why keep reraising/thinking about all in?

      BSS means that you have to play poker post flop as well as pre flop
      You are correct. This is why i'v been saying 100bb stack you should just call as shoving is - ev generally speaking, where as calling and playing post flop is far more profitable as you can hit and win a big pot or miss and take it down by out playing your opponent.

      If you however have 50bb or less it is mathmatically correct to shove.
    • PokerRoad
      PokerRoad
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 143
      Just let me start with you question. Is AK worth playing? Answer yes LOL



      AK can be a tough hand to play oop post flop.
      So this comes down to both a position question & an opponent tendency question.

      So if you raising 3x /4x & your opp is reraising you (most often you are in earlier position (ie out of poss)vrs him so we will deal with this case first.

      So oop.

      As its gona be quite a villian dependent answer I can only be quite vague here :(


      Position is esp key to this hand

      So in general ..assuming efective stacks are 100bb

      Because you are oop and its harder to play this hand post Flop-
      It is generally better to 4bet & stack off to a 5bet shove with AK in this spot.....
      Basicly AK loses alot of its value post flop(oop) as most flops are not going to hit your hand and its then going to be very hard to play oop.

      Ok you might be thinking this is bad, because we will only be getting it in against better hands that have us crushed?
      This simply issnt true...
      sure sometimes it will happen that you will get it in Vrs AA (or KK which issnt as bad as you still have 25% equity with AKvrs KK) but this will not happen even nearly often enough to make this playn -ev

      So what can we expect to happen when we 4bet here -
      1.What hands are we trying to fold(what hands do we expect him to fold)

      2.What hands do we want to call (what hands do we expect him to call us with)

      3.what hands do we want him to 5bet shove :( ( what hands can we expect him to 5 bet shove us with)ok so all the expect parts here are what we feel or villian will do with a particullar range of hands based on what we know about him .(this is importand & its what we should be thinking when we 4 bet ).


      Ok so what hands do we want him to fold ... of corse we want him to fold any hands we are sharing equtiy with i.e. all pairs QQ and less
      What hands can we expect him to fold it depends on our villian so that, you have to guess yourself ( but we can mabey assume he's never folding QQ although nothing surprises me anymore :D ) & everything else or hand does very well against so it will depend on villian type.

      ....Ill continue this shortly on another post (supposed to be working right now :f_biggrin:
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    • PokerRoad
      PokerRoad
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 143
      What hands do we want him to call us with?
      We really dont want him to call as we will be in a big pot oop .
      It really would be a mistake for him to call our 4bet with most hands so often when he calls he will have a very strong hand & thinks we are light 4betn and wont call a 5 bet shove other times he will be a complete noob who calls with 77 in this spot (its up to you to figure out this range)

      Obv we dont mind him calling with hands we dominate although we cant expect him to unless he is really bad and thinks his KQ or something is ahead

      So really calling is the one thing out of the three options we do not want him to do ....

      So we must 4bet prety large to make him pick one of the other two options .
      So if we raise to 4 and he makes it 13 I would then make it 52ish with my 4 bet to make him consider folding or shoving.
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    • PokerRoad
      PokerRoad
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 143
      Ok so we are not too happy about a shove either .... Are we ??

      Well lets look at it ..
      If he soves we can put alot more in the range of the avg player then just AA/KK we can put alot of other pairs in there two & even some 5 bet bluffshoves also we will get a spaz shove with a hand like KQs KJs that they just cant fold ---so dont expect to always be against AA KK when you get shoved on .. & if he soves a pair we dont mind taking a race as we would have to play the hand oop )- This strat is high in varience but is the most +ev play .

      So 4beting big is the best strategy oop imo

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    • PokerRoad
      PokerRoad
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 143
      Ok lets talk (IN Position) ie last to act..

      In pos

      it now becomes better to call as you have position and will be able to play better post flop then your villian ..
      And as there are so many weaker Aces in most peoples 3 betn range it is great when you flop tptk & can get it in vrs tpgk.

      So now with the advantage of position the best play is calling (although its ok to 4bet vrs argro 3betors or for ballancing reasons)

      hope all this helps ..didnt have time to do all the range maths so its far from the finished artical

      But if you should take just one line of advise from me then this is it.
      In General
      with AK 100bb deep 4 bet large oop & call in pos for value & to outplay post flop
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    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
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      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      I always think AK is good enough to go broke with. You have to understand that most times you will be flipping, but where you win your money is non showdown pots where they fold over your 4bet or shove.

      AK is good in my eyes because you have and Ace and a King (duh!). Because you have one of each, then its less likely that your opponent has 2 because there are only 3 left. In fact by having 1 Ace and 1 king you block half the combinations of AA that are possible!

      Oh and if you 4bet with AK then you have to go broke most of the time ;)

      Good luck and best regards,

      -Jack
    • RoundMidnight
      RoundMidnight
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      Joined: 04.03.2009 Posts: 39
      well, call a reraise with AK is usually very bad (especially out of position) because of 2 reasons:you miss 2 of 3 flops so you will be very often in this ugly spot.An if you hit you didn't get paid of very often cause opp's wont stack off with 99-QQ(most of his reasonable reraise range) on Axx or Kxx board.The only hand you want to be against here is AQ ,but its just a litle % of his reraise range,and if he have position on you he very often can kick you out of the pot uninproved.So 4bet or fold depends on the opponent,FWIW fold should be used in rare cases.
    • ImAnAcehole9
      ImAnAcehole9
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      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 128
      Shorthanded - I reraise, if villain flat calls, I bet the pot 2/3 or more regardless. If I raised 2/3 of the pot and get reraised by Villain, I will look to see if I have hit the flop or have draws.....if not, I fold easily. If I have hit/have draws I like to move it, move it, I like to move it, move it, play me I'll prove it!

      Full Ring - I flat and see the flop......miss the flop I check. Villiain bets, I fold or reraise (checkraise) depending on my mood. If I cant take control of the pot after that I fold.....easy.....take a little from above too, but try not to just play your cards. Villain is also wondering what you have even if he has AA or KK
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Sigh....

      Ok its very simple SH:

      Your OOP... you open UTG with AK, get re-raised.... you can't call now, freaking pointless because you only hit the flop 33% of the time and hence post-flop play sucks big time if you miss.

      Hence you 4-bet.... creates enough FE usually and if he flats you can put him on a good range.

      If he shoves you call... no way you will fold after 4-bet

      So yeah... AK is all-in pre-flop or your opponent folds.