Very hard to play JJ...what am I doing wrong?

    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      I'm having terrible problems playing JJ well. My Poker tracker is indicating that i'm losing no less than 3.74 BB/hand on average (though i have a win% of 66.67%), which is by far the most losing starting hand in my repertoire. To compare, the second most losing starting hand is A9s with an average loss of 2.42.
      It seems like every time I have JJ and I flop a set, someone has a higher set, makes a straight or flush on the river or draws me out in another way. When I do win, winnings are usually not very big. Very annoying. It seems that I've been missing something here, so if someone could take a look at the games, it'd be highly appreciated.

      Hand 1, higher set:
      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J:heart: , J:club:
      2 folds, MP2 raises to $0.20, MP3 folds, CO raises to $0.50, BU folds, Hero calls $0.45, BB calls $0.40, MP2 calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($2.00) J:spade: , K:diamond: , 3:spade: (4 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 bets $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.00, 2 folds, CO calls $1.50.

      Turn: ($6.50) 4:spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets $4, CO calls $4.00.

      River: ($14.50) 6:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero bets $4, CO raises to $4.43 (All-In), Hero calls $0.43.

      Final Pot: $23.36


      Hand 2: UTG gets 2 pair on river


      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is CO with J:spade: , J:heart:
      UTG calls $0.10, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, BU folds, SB calls $0.35, BB folds, UTG calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($1.30) T:heart: , 8:diamond: , 6:spade: (3 players)
      SB checks, UTG bets $0.70, Hero raises to $1.40, SB folds, UTG calls $0.70.

      Turn: ($4.10) 2:diamond: (2 players)
      UTG checks, Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2.00.

      River: ($8.10) 7:club: (2 players)
      UTG bets $14.88 (All-In), Hero raises to $4.70 (All-In).

      Final Pot: $27.68

      Hand 3: Higher set, though I suspected he had AA, i still called not knowing for sure


      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J:heart: , J:diamond:
      3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 4 folds, SB raises to $0.80, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.20, SB raises to $1.80, Hero calls $0.60.

      Flop: ($3.70) J:club: , A:club: , 3:diamond: (2 players)
      SB bets $5, Hero raises to $7.59 (All-In), SB calls $2.59.

      Turn: ($18.88) T:heart:
      River: ($18.88) 7:heart:


      Final Pot: $18.88

      Hand 4: vs. Higher pocket pair


      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is CO with J:spade: , J:diamond:
      UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.30, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $0.50, MP3 folds, Hero calls $0.50, 3 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.20.

      Flop: ($1.65) 5:diamond: , 7:heart: , 9:spade: (3 players)
      UTG+2 bets $0.60, MP2 calls $0.60, Hero raises to $1.50, UTG+2 calls $0.90, MP2 folds.

      Turn: ($5.25) 8:heart: (2 players)
      UTG+2 bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80.

      River: ($6.85) 9:club: (2 players)
      UTG+2 bets $1.11, Hero calls $1.11.

      Final Pot: $9.07


      Hand 5: vs. higher set


      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with J:club: , J:diamond:
      4 folds, CO raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.20, CO calls $0.80.

      Flop: ($2.45) T:heart: , A:diamond: , J:heart: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, Hero raises to $3.00, CO calls $1.50.

      Turn: ($8.45) K:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $5, CO raises to $2.62 (All-In).

      River: ($16.07) 4:heart:


      Final Pot: $16.07


      I think it might be a combination of falling in love with my pocket pair together with just extreme bad luck. But still, I'd like it very much if someone could point out my flaws.
  • 4 replies
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      It all looks good to me. Just extreme bad luck. You're only likely to flop an undeset only once in about 5k hands (I can't remember the exact no.).
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi Timor83!

      First of all: Please post the stacksizes. That helps a lot while analyzing NL hands. In addition: please don't post any results. The hand evaluations could be biased.

      Ok, here we go :)

      Hand 1) I would bet the flop. There are straight and flushdraws possible and don't want to see another spade or face card. Turn call is ok but on the river I would check/call because you get more value from bluffs.

      Hand 2) Your raise on the flop is too small. You are giving your opponent the odds he needs to draw you out. Turn play is ok. But you can fold the river. There are not many hands you are beating and he overbets the pot.

      Hand 3) Preflop: Just call the minraise from SB and don't minraise him back. Flopplay is fine.

      Hand 4) Nice hand!

      Hand 5) Your raise is too small. Put him all-in directly if he is short-stacked. There are too many draws out there. Your minraise gives him the odds for every draw.

      Conclusion: I think you should work on your flopplay. Your raises are way too small and give your opponents great odds.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      Ok, thanks for your advice. I'm starting to get a hand of this NL-thing, but indeed, my post-flop play needs improvement. I've posted the hands again but this time with stack sizes. If there's anything that changes the advice you gave with these stack sizes, let me know. Thanks :)

      1)

      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)    
      Hero:
      $18.02
      CO:
      $10.93
      BB:
      $9.30
      MP2:
      $9.90

      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J:heart: , J:club:
      2 folds, MP2 raises to $0.20, MP3 folds, CO raises to $0.50, BU folds, Hero calls $0.45, BB calls $0.40, MP2 calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($2.00) J:spade: , K:diamond: , 3:spade: (4 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 bets $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.00, 2 folds, CO calls $1.50.

      Turn: ($6.50) 4:spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets $4, CO calls $4.00.

      River: ($14.50) 6:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero bets $4, CO raises to $4.43 (All-In), Hero calls $0.43.

      Final Pot: $23.36


      2)

      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)      
      BU:
      $8.58
      UTG:
      $18.68
      Hero:
      $8.50
      SB:
      $4.39

      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is CO with J:spade: , J:heart:
      UTG calls $0.10, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, BU folds, SB calls $0.35, BB folds, UTG calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($1.30) T:heart: , 8:diamond: , 6:spade: (3 players)
      SB checks, UTG bets $0.70, Hero raises to $1.40, SB folds, UTG calls $0.70.

      Turn: ($4.10) 2:diamond: (2 players)
      UTG checks, Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2.00.

      River: ($8.10) 7:club: (2 players)
      UTG bets $14.88 (All-In), Hero raises to $4.70 (All-In).

      Final Pot: $27.68

      3)

      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)        
      SB:
      $11.73
      Hero:
      $9.39

      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J:heart: , J:diamond:
      3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 4 folds, SB raises to $0.80, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.20, SB raises to $1.80, Hero calls $0.60.

      Flop: ($3.70) J:club: , A:club: , 3:diamond: (2 players)
      SB bets $5, Hero raises to $7.59 (All-In), SB calls $2.59.

      Turn: ($18.88) T:heart:
      River: ($18.88) 7:heart:


      Final Pot: $18.88

      5)


      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)      
      CO:
      $6.82
      Hero:
      $10.71

      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with J:club: , J:diamond:
      4 folds, CO raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.20, CO calls $0.80.

      Flop: ($2.45) T:heart: , A:diamond: , J:heart: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, Hero raises to $3.00, CO calls $1.50.

      Turn: ($8.45) K:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $5, CO raises to $2.62 (All-In).

      River: ($16.07) 4:heart:


      Final Pot: $16.07
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Thanks Timor83!

      I think in this case except from hand 5 that doesn't change anything. But it can be very important in some spots. That's why I think it's better to post the stack sizes, too. In hand 5 I would put him all-in directly on the flop.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81