Noob ICM help

    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Yeah. I just started using ICM software and am having problems getting my head around a certain situation. Much appreciated if someone could help me out.

      Situation: Underdog in the bubble with decent tournament equity.




      (I know it's a fold, just wanted the range example.)

      Most of the stuff I get wrong in SNG Wizard relates to this situation.

      ICM says push super tight since the risk is high in relation to the reward. You have decent equity and the big stacks will call quite often.

      I usually push a bit looser since:

      1) If you miss a push opportunity, have to pay the blinds, and the other small stack makes a few successful pushes – pretty soon you will be very short with low equity having to make desperation pushes. It's better to push with a medium/strong hand while you have the chance than to get yourself into this situation.

      2) There's no guarantee you will even realise your tournament equity by playing super tight unless villain explodes or you luckbox a few good hands.

      Recently I've been experimenting with the ICM ranges while playing turbo's, but seem to get into a lot of trouble pushing so tight.

      So yeah. I'm just really interested in opinions on good default push ranges in these situations. ICM? Pokerstrategy chart? Something in-between?
  • 5 replies
    • zhenzhenZHEN
      zhenzhenZHEN
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.04.2009 Posts: 190
      huh...i dunno whats going on here with these supertight ranges oO
      I fold first hand but would push something like 89s there lol

      meh maybe my ranges are too loose..mayb sum1 can give better ones?
    • tevere
      tevere
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.11.2008 Posts: 69
      don't forget, sng wizard doesn't know the ranges, it makes assumptions. so
      you should use something like holdem manager(to analyze your oponents stats) in connection with SNg wiz to get a better feel for the best decision.
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Thanks for the replies. Yeah that's very true. I've been experimenting with range's a bit more. Unless I make call percentage's unrealistically tight, it still recommends tight pushes.

      The main factor seems to be equity distributions. The fact that I'm equal last gives me decent tournament equity. Since I'm pushing into big stacks, chips lost are worth a lot more than chips gained. Therefore push tight.

      I am basically thinking that the tight push ranges in these situations might not be ideal, since it doesn't take into account the impact of paying rapidly rising blinds over and over again with no gain in chips.
    • GunFlavoured
      GunFlavoured
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.10.2008 Posts: 626
      Originally posted by johnbeattie85
      I am basically thinking that the tight push ranges in these situations might not be ideal, since it doesn't take into account the impact of paying rapidly rising blinds over and over again with no gain in chips.
      I think that is one of the flaws with the ICM. Personally I push the first hand but whether that is correct or even +EV$ I'm not sure. I don't like being super tight in this spot, I think you need to push a bit looser while you still have FE. If the other short stack doubles up you're in an ugly position. Also, in the first example if you play too tight here the short stack will get an opportunity to push into you making things difficult. If you don't push into the big stacks you'll blind out before you get a decent hand.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      first hand your callrange for SB is a little tight, callrange for BB looks way too loose. Try setting 'm both at 11-14% ish

      edit: I fed it to the lizard and I'm surprised, this shove is -$EV with decent callranges.

      I still take the shove though, ICM model isn't perfect here.