Making Difficult Lay-Downs

    • wquinn636
      wquinn636
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 64
      I can't click the fold button when I'm deep into a hand, no matter how obvious it is that my opponent has something better. I always think about it, then click the nice shiny green button labelled "call" instead, which invariably leads me astray. Then I think afterwards how stupid a call it was and remind myself not to be tempted by the shiny green button's lucid charms next time. But it keeps getting me.

      Anyone got any tips on keeping discipline when there's a fair bit of money in the pot?
  • 29 replies
    • badpinguin
      badpinguin
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2009 Posts: 245
      Go play at fulltilt, they have a blue button. :f_eek:
    • Ultifanatic
      Ultifanatic
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2008 Posts: 100
      There are 2 reasons to be tempted by the Shiny Green Button. We are not talking about when you are in a valid reason to think you are ahead in a hand and want to extract more value....This is only when you are behind and reasonably think you can not win the hand with your holding.

      1st being that even though you should know better and fold your losing hand, you have a pride issue that your hand "should" have won. Thus you call on the off chance you do have the right hand OR that you want to show that you should have won with your hand instead of thier suckout, bad line, etc.

      2nd being that for what ever reason you think you are behind and you just have to qualify your reasoning 100% by seeing you are beat.

      Both of these are WRONG reasons to hit the call button. You need to figure out which one you are....

      If you are in the 1st group...Pride is a very hard thing to break and it can be a very personal battle, but it is an important battle with yourself when it comes to profitable poker. One way to get away from the pride call is to stop calling altogether. If I am evaluating the hand and figure that I have the villain beat, then I do not call I raise. This means that I do lose if I misread and actually had the better hand...but also means I do not piss away money on bad calls where I do not have the better hand. This is only 1 way to deal with pride calls...If you think you are ahead bet, if not FOLD.

      If you are in the 2nd group....The qualifying call, is actually the reverse of Pride. It is the insecurity in yourself to make the right decision and know you were right to move on. Best way to combat this is with notes on players. Stating in the notes that the villian bets when he has X type of winning hand and will play the following ranges in X positions. This will help you be more secure in the folds because the history of the villians actions. Yes you will get bluffed now and then but it is better to get bluffed 1 time then call to see you are beat 3.

      These are just two simple was to dealing with the tempted Call Button....
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      Whenever you think you should fold but can't do it - raise :f_p:
    • Ultifanatic
      Ultifanatic
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2008 Posts: 100
      Actually....you do not want to get re-raised and stuck calling again...

      So the obvious solution is to go all in.... :f_eek:
    • jonnyquest
      jonnyquest
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2009 Posts: 285
      Take some pride in making big lay downs. Great players and fish both make the big calls. However, only good players make big lay downs. When you have to fold KK when a fish hits his Ace with A2o remind yourself of the money you're saving. Be proud of yourself when you make a huge laydown. It takes skill to fold the second nuts when you know you're beat.
    • anstaendig
      anstaendig
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.11.2006 Posts: 3,833
      Originally posted by Ultifanatic
      There are 2 reasons to be tempted by the Shiny Green Button. We are not talking about when you are in a valid reason to think you are ahead in a hand and want to extract more value....This is only when you are behind and reasonably think you can not win the hand with your holding.

      1st being that even though you should know better and fold your losing hand, you have a pride issue that your hand "should" have won. Thus you call on the off chance you do have the right hand OR that you want to show that you should have won with your hand instead of thier suckout, bad line, etc.

      2nd being that for what ever reason you think you are behind and you just have to qualify your reasoning 100% by seeing you are beat.

      Both of these are WRONG reasons to hit the call button. You need to figure out which one you are....

      If you are in the 1st group...Pride is a very hard thing to break and it can be a very personal battle, but it is an important battle with yourself when it comes to profitable poker. One way to get away from the pride call is to stop calling altogether. If I am evaluating the hand and figure that I have the villain beat, then I do not call I raise. This means that I do lose if I misread and actually had the better hand...but also means I do not piss away money on bad calls where I do not have the better hand. This is only 1 way to deal with pride calls...If you think you are ahead bet, if not FOLD.

      If you are in the 2nd group....The qualifying call, is actually the reverse of Pride. It is the insecurity in yourself to make the right decision and know you were right to move on. Best way to combat this is with notes on players. Stating in the notes that the villian bets when he has X type of winning hand and will play the following ranges in X positions. This will help you be more secure in the folds because the history of the villians actions. Yes you will get bluffed now and then but it is better to get bluffed 1 time then call to see you are beat 3.

      These are just two simple was to dealing with the tempted Call Button....
      :s_thumbsup:
    • ClownTackler
      ClownTackler
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2009 Posts: 49
      Once, while i was playing some MTT, i was in BB holding A4s. UTG (a very tight player) opened betting with a miniraise. Everybody folded... i called.

      The flop came AAK... i senced that something is wrong with his miniraise... so i just checked... and he did it too.

      Turn came 4... giving me a full house... i put 3BB bet in... he just called.

      The river was a blank card... so i went out for 6 bets... he pushed all-in... i folded.

      He showed AK...

      The point is that i really feel proud of myself because i made a great laydown. It took me a lot of time to realize that i don't need to win every hand... I only need to play good, and when i do that... i'm not afraid of my earnings in long terms. And if you want to be a winning player, than you'll have to learn how to drop your good hands when you feel that's the right move.

      And one more thing... good poker player loses most of his money with good hands... when you know when to fold your good hand, you, actually, are wining a lot of money. :)

      GL
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Originally posted by ClownTackler
      Once, while i was playing some MTT, i was in BB holding A4s. UTG (a very tight player) opened betting with a miniraise. Everybody folded... i called.

      The flop came AAK... i senced that something is wrong with his miniraise... so i just checked... and he did it too.

      Turn came 4... giving me a full house... i put 3BB bet in... he just called.

      The river was a blank card... so i went out for 6 bets... he pushed all-in... i folded.

      He showed AK...

      The point is that i really feel proud of myself because i made a great laydown. It took me a lot of time to realize that i don't need to win every hand... I only need to play good, and when i do that... i'm not afraid of my earnings in long terms. And if you want to be a winning player, than you'll have to learn how to drop your good hands when you feel that's the right move.

      And one more thing... good poker player loses most of his money with good hands... when you know when to fold your good hand, you, actually, are wining a lot of money. :)

      GL
      That, my friend, is a HELL of a laydown, kudos to you :) I'm slowly learning to may hands down, I still find it hard to click that little fold button when i'm holding TPTK
    • ClownTackler
      ClownTackler
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2009 Posts: 49
      Thanks man....

      Honestly, i had the same problem some time ago, that's why i posted here in the first place. :)

      I wasn't able to solve that problem until i started playing limit tables. There i learned how to read my opponents and boards, and, more important, to trust to myself.

      But that's the beauty of poker. Isn't it... sometimes you need to re-raise with A high, sometimes you need to laydown a monster. :)

      I read in many places that, usually, what first comes to our mind is the right decision. As more as we are thinking in order to find the right move, we are going into the wrong direction. The first thing that comes to our mind is the result of our reflex way of decision making process, based on hundreds thousands, or millions hands we have played and we are keeping stored somewhere in our mind. :)
    • theboydave
      theboydave
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.07.2009 Posts: 20
      money saved is the same as money earned i personaly feel proud when i make a great (or even just a correct) laydown every time you are making correct decisions you are improving your profitability.
    • aceonetheriver
      aceonetheriver
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2008 Posts: 591
      Originally posted by badpinguin
      Go play at fulltilt, they have a blue button. :f_eek:
      lol :D
    • wquinn636
      wquinn636
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 64
      Originally posted by ClownTackler
      Once, while i was playing some MTT, i was in BB holding A4s. UTG (a very tight player) opened betting with a miniraise. Everybody folded... i called.

      The flop came AAK... i senced that something is wrong with his miniraise... so i just checked... and he did it too.

      Turn came 4... giving me a full house... i put 3BB bet in... he just called.

      The river was a blank card... so i went out for 6 bets... he pushed all-in... i folded.

      He showed AK...

      The point is that i really feel proud of myself because i made a great laydown. It took me a lot of time to realize that i don't need to win every hand... I only need to play good, and when i do that... i'm not afraid of my earnings in long terms. And if you want to be a winning player, than you'll have to learn how to drop your good hands when you feel that's the right move.

      And one more thing... good poker player loses most of his money with good hands... when you know when to fold your good hand, you, actually, are wining a lot of money. :)

      GL
      I had the exact same situation last week. A tight, solid player raised UTG and I called from the button with 66. Flop came K, 6, 2... and he suddenly started check-calling. 2 came down on the turn, giving me a full house, and he check-called again. Considering his range pre-flop was QQ+, AK, I concluded the only hand he could have by now was kings full. I still wasn't able to get away from it though, which I suppose is the problem stated in this thread eh.
    • wquinn636
      wquinn636
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 64
      Originally posted by Ultifanatic
      There are 2 reasons to be tempted by the Shiny Green Button. We are not talking about when you are in a valid reason to think you are ahead in a hand and want to extract more value....This is only when you are behind and reasonably think you can not win the hand with your holding.

      1st being that even though you should know better and fold your losing hand, you have a pride issue that your hand "should" have won. Thus you call on the off chance you do have the right hand OR that you want to show that you should have won with your hand instead of thier suckout, bad line, etc.

      2nd being that for what ever reason you think you are behind and you just have to qualify your reasoning 100% by seeing you are beat.

      Both of these are WRONG reasons to hit the call button. You need to figure out which one you are....

      If you are in the 1st group...Pride is a very hard thing to break and it can be a very personal battle, but it is an important battle with yourself when it comes to profitable poker. One way to get away from the pride call is to stop calling altogether. If I am evaluating the hand and figure that I have the villain beat, then I do not call I raise. This means that I do lose if I misread and actually had the better hand...but also means I do not piss away money on bad calls where I do not have the better hand. This is only 1 way to deal with pride calls...If you think you are ahead bet, if not FOLD.

      If you are in the 2nd group....The qualifying call, is actually the reverse of Pride. It is the insecurity in yourself to make the right decision and know you were right to move on. Best way to combat this is with notes on players. Stating in the notes that the villian bets when he has X type of winning hand and will play the following ranges in X positions. This will help you be more secure in the folds because the history of the villians actions. Yes you will get bluffed now and then but it is better to get bluffed 1 time then call to see you are beat 3.

      These are just two simple was to dealing with the tempted Call Button....
      I'm probably in the second group.

      Or it's just an impulsive thing. I think I've got the best hand on the river and suddenly my opponent moves all in and before I know it I've clicked the infamous shiny green button. I'm not someone who can run off instinct. Not yet anyway. When I take the time to think for a second I know what the right decision is. But in the split-second after they push there's a frustrated voice in my head that just says, fuck this.

      I guess it'll improve with experience.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      REading over this thread there are some replys going like: "i carnt let go of this easyly" or "If i have this hand i carnt let go of it".

      Well at the end of the day it doesnt matter what you have...If your opponent has a better hand your beat. Getting married to your hands cost you money. You got to think of it as saving money. Why invest money when your behind and have no edge? The reasson people call when they know they should fold is most of the time because psychologically they feel some entitlement to the pot when they make a big hand. At the end of the day "Best 5 win".
    • Ultifanatic
      Ultifanatic
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2008 Posts: 100
      Well wquinn636, it actually sounds lke you are just struggling with level 1 and level 2 thinking....

      If you take your time, can achieve level 2 where you put thought and reason to what your opponents might have in thier hands. While other times when you are lured by the call button, you are only in level 1 thinking. Which is you only think about what you have in your hand and are pretty much oblivious to thinking about your opponent and his hand.

      To get past this is done with experience, self study and study of the game....The more you do that, the more you will think in level 2 and be moving into level 3 thinking. Which is thinking about what your opponent thinks you actually have...

      What you might want to try is a sweat session with someone. They do not have to be better then you, just someone to sweat out a session or two so you can bounce your internal thoughts outward and off your partner. This will help you think through hands more and get feedbackabout your thoughts. Also taking video of your games with a mic to capture your thoughts about the hands...then watching your own video the next day.

      It will come in time....
    • vilmantas
      vilmantas
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.07.2009 Posts: 22
      He might have KK or just high aces. Folding full house in this situation, in my opinion, was bad. (reffering to A4 fold)
      EDIT: btw if you thought he had AK he should've raised pre flop to give you that idea and if he did so why did you call his raise with A4?
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,297
      Originally posted by vilmantas
      He might have KK or just high aces. Folding full house in this situation, in my opinion, was bad. (reffering to A4 fold)
      EDIT: btw if you thought he had AK he should've raised pre flop to give you that idea and if he did so why did you call his raise with A4?
      I'm amazed you think you know the answer to this when there aren't even any stack sizes given.

      w34z3l
    • wquinn636
      wquinn636
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 64
      Originally posted by Ultifanatic
      Well wquinn636, it actually sounds lke you are just struggling with level 1 and level 2 thinking....

      If you take your time, can achieve level 2 where you put thought and reason to what your opponents might have in thier hands. While other times when you are lured by the call button, you are only in level 1 thinking. Which is you only think about what you have in your hand and are pretty much oblivious to thinking about your opponent and his hand.

      To get past this is done with experience, self study and study of the game....The more you do that, the more you will think in level 2 and be moving into level 3 thinking. Which is thinking about what your opponent thinks you actually have...

      What you might want to try is a sweat session with someone. They do not have to be better then you, just someone to sweat out a session or two so you can bounce your internal thoughts outward and off your partner. This will help you think through hands more and get feedbackabout your thoughts. Also taking video of your games with a mic to capture your thoughts about the hands...then watching your own video the next day.

      It will come in time....
      It's not that. I'm reading the opponent, and I KNOW I have the worst hand. I just call anyway, it's a lack of discipline.
    • ClownTackler
      ClownTackler
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2009 Posts: 49
      Originally posted by w34z3l
      Originally posted by vilmantas
      He might have KK or just high aces. Folding full house in this situation, in my opinion, was bad. (reffering to A4 fold)
      EDIT: btw if you thought he had AK he should've raised pre flop to give you that idea and if he did so why did you call his raise with A4?
      I'm amazed you think you know the answer to this when there aren't even any stack sizes given.

      w34z3l
      Hi,

      Like i said, he miniraised here... and, of course, i called from BB with my A4s. True, he could easily had KK... but i felt he had an AK.

      That's why I mentioned this as my greatest lay-down in MTTs.

      I can't remember stacks sizes... but i do remember that he had me covered.

      You are right, generally speaking, this was probably a bad fold, but in this case it wasn't. :)
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