What odds are needed to call on the flop in NLHE?

    • DoctorTilt
      DoctorTilt
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2009 Posts: 4
      Hello everyone!

      I've been playing poker (No Limit HE) for a while now and know how pot odds work but there's something that has never been clear to me.

      - if i have a draw on the flop, should I take in consideration the odds of completing it on the turn (1 card to come) or the odds of completing it on the turn OR river (2 cards to come)?

      Take a flush draw for example. Suppose I have the typical 9 outs and therefore odds of approximately 4:1 to complete it on the turn and odds of 2:1 on the turn or river. These odds are significantly different.

      Which odds should I be looking at? Of course, I'm not talking about the case where I move all-in on the flop since then I obviously get to see the two cards.

      Please enlighten me! :)


      PS: I have read the article on pot odds but this subtlety remains unclear to me.
      PS2: I'm also aware of implied odds but the question remains..
  • 6 replies
    • DoctorTilt
      DoctorTilt
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2009 Posts: 4
      Anyone?
      I'm sure someone must know the answer.. :)

      My own answer is:

      - when lacking information about the player(s) I'm up against, I take the pessimistic approach (4:1). -> tighter
      - when I believe I have good implied odds I can lower it to 3:1 or even 2:1. Also depends on the flop texture and my reads of the opponents hand strength (if any). -> looser

      Does this make any sense to anyone in these forums?

      Thanks in advance!
    • delete461
      delete461
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      Joined: 04.07.2008 Posts: 1,036
      When you are looking at the flop with 9 outs, your odds are 4:1 of making your hand on the turn, so these are the pot odds you need. Only use 2:1 if you or your opponent are moving all-in, in which case you will see two cards.
    • DoctorTilt
      DoctorTilt
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2009 Posts: 4
      Thanks for the answer, delete461!

      Don't you find that most of the time you don't have the right odds to call? Especially heads-up. Multi-way pot it's sometimes possible.. (This does make sense, but basically means that realistically we will rarely draw)

      How do you factor in implied odds? My approach is certainly wrong as it has no maths involved, it's more common sense than anything else..
    • ladman
      ladman
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      Joined: 13.04.2009 Posts: 289
      Poker is not gambling if you play by the right math right? To me when you start using pot odds is when the little essence of gambling comes in. Essentially implied odds are are the same as the odds the pot is offering you but takes into consideration what you expect to be bet on the next round(s) of betting. IMO only to be considered if you have a monster draw at lower levels anyway. So as you cannot know implied odds for sure, no matter how strong your read on your opponent, you are playing blind and may put your cash in a pot that does not offer sufficient reason to put your finger in that pie.
    • DoctorTilt
      DoctorTilt
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2009 Posts: 4
      Thanks ladman.

      I am a maths person and only gamble when the odds are right (or when I think they are). Hence my questions :)

      I agree that you're kind of playing blind when you use implied odds because you can't accurately predict that an opponent will put more money in the pot if you make your hand. So basically it's better to stick to pot odds and not take implied odds that much into consideration?

      Your exception is monster draws (at lower levels) but if you have a monster draw, chances are you're raising or getting the right odds to call (straight flush draw, for eg). But coming back to 'simple' draws like a straight or a flush draw, we should Always stick to the pot odds and ignore the potential implied odds?

      What if I'm playing against super-aggressive players or big bluffers who constantly put money in the pot? Different scenarios of course but both increasing implied odds (if they keep aggressing and don't fold). At low levels we typically have no fold'em hold'em players and multi-way pots..
    • ladman
      ladman
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      Joined: 13.04.2009 Posts: 289
      Well your asking all the right questions, and many of them are unanswerable it depends on the draw the number of opponents and the way they play. before you make your move ask yourself those very same questions and you should reveal your very own answer