limping from sb in unraised hands

    • bluffalot123
      bluffalot123
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      Joined: 29.07.2009 Posts: 110
      ok so i think i have quite a big leak in my game after goin through my hands from a couple of sessions i seem to be limping in sb with quite alot of hands.

      my problem is i dnt no where to draw the line on what weak hands to call nd to fold in this position as i only see it as its only half a bb so i find my self limping with pritty much anything so would love some advice on how to determine whether to fold or call the half bb

      ty
  • 16 replies
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      You should be using the Bronze Chart "Calling from the small blind without any pre-flop raises" chart. This gives you the hands you should call with.

      Remember of course that you use this as a backup, and should still raise with hands listed in the "Actions against callers in front of you - Calling/Raising" chart.

      If you have a stats program then you should see that your fold in the SB stat should be tending toward ~85%.

      Hope this helps.
    • bluffalot123
      bluffalot123
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      Joined: 29.07.2009 Posts: 110
      is'nt that chart more aimed at Fr players or can i apply this to sh? and about the fold 85% in sb mine is 56% over 10k hands of sh

      ty for help
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hi bluffalot123,

      the limping rage is only restricted by the players who called ahead of you. So as it's SH you will have less situation where you can limp but the chart can be used as well. The chart even got implemented to the approx gold charts as it's so useful. :)
    • bluffalot123
      bluffalot123
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      Joined: 29.07.2009 Posts: 110
      thnx :)

      so having 56% fold in sb is way to loose?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by bluffalot123
      thnx :)

      so having 56% fold in sb is way to loose?
      Uhm yes.
      But maybe we confuse 2 different stats.
      The 85% are SB fold to stealraise. This is a bit outdated as games got looser and 75% should be better. A 3-bet is often the answer in this case and not a coldcall.
      I don't know exact stats for the SB complete stats. Maybe someone with a large database can give us his stats.
    • gape0000
      gape0000
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      Joined: 28.08.2007 Posts: 628
      I think its really table dependent ,if the table is filled with lags or tags i usually dont limp at all.

      If there is one or more bad players then i wanna play more hands in sb for 1 small bet more cause i can assume i have quite an edge postflop and can turn marginal hands into winners but dont go to far i guess.

      72 still smells :f_p:
    • cryoburn
      cryoburn
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      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 322
      You can consider several factors: number of players (FR or SH), stakes, table dynamics, players stats or reads, your image and stack sizes.
      But what's really important is your read or stats on the BB and your image at the table.

      I really don't like limping in SH games, especially in SB where I'll play OOP.
      If someone open limped the pot I usually call the SB with small pocket pairs 22-77, Ace rag suited and JT+.

      Depending on opponents in the pot (in this case VPIP/PFR/LimpCall), my raising range there is 88+ KQ+ AT+.

      If nobody entered the pot I'll be stealing a lot from the SB. I was playing 6 max a couple of hours ago with a 9/6/1 multitabling nit with +90% fold BB and SB to steals so I raised every single hand from the SB. I won about 50 blinds off him. And he only 3bet me once and I had 72s so easy fold :)
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by cryoburn
      If nobody entered the pot I'll be stealing a lot from the SB. I was playing 6 max a couple of hours ago with a 9/6/1 multitabling nit with +90% fold BB and SB to steals so I raised every single hand from the SB. I won about 50 blinds off him. And he only 3bet me once and I had 72s so easy fold :)
      Strictly speaking, if BB folds 66% of hands to a steal raise, then you can open raise from the SB profitably with any two cards.

      As I understand it, if the BB is passive then you can open complete from the SB wider, including all suited connectors to 54s/64s. You can then fold where you have less than 35% equity.
    • Berkstajger
      Berkstajger
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      Joined: 19.03.2009 Posts: 878
      I would never open complete from SB even though it is elaborated in one article, but it is also said that it's a marginal case.

      Balancing FTW. :D
    • Joshquan
      Joshquan
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      Joined: 01.01.2009 Posts: 479
      Originally posted by Berkstajger
      I would never open complete from SB even though it is elaborated in one article, but it is also said that it's a marginal case.

      Balancing FTW. :D
      I think this is very profitable; against the right oponents. Although when they are fairly rare even on low stakes and probably wonk exist beyond 1/2 , with a high vpip low pfr, and low fold to flop bet/ wtsd. works a treat with any two open limp / bet flop.

      Its not as if you have to balence it either because being first in from the small blind happens very rarely anyway and and these arent the type of opponents who can adjust or pay attention so you can still raise your strong hands for value!
    • Berkstajger
      Berkstajger
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      Joined: 19.03.2009 Posts: 878
      You probably meant high fold to flop bet? :D

      Still, you have to have a decent amount of hands and maybe I'm a little paranoid but I really try to give as little tells as possible to regular players.

      But it would be a nice reverse psychology thingie if reg tags at the table would notice that they might think you play this line everytime so you would have an advantage when stealing from them... :f_p:
    • Joshquan
      Joshquan
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      Joined: 01.01.2009 Posts: 479
      It wouldnt be that important what regs notice i dont think as you would never play this line against them, and if they are really thinking players theyll notice what and why you are doing it and probably give you more credit as a thinking player if anything.
    • Berkstajger
      Berkstajger
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      Joined: 19.03.2009 Posts: 878
      I meant reg fish. They also exist. :)
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hmm, hopefully this post is OT - it is a part of my game I'm actively reviewing at the moment so it is pretty interesting to me.

      Playing from the SB v LAG/SuperLAG BB

      Stox advocates open completing from the SB where the BB is aggressive and the 3Bet risk is high. This is due to the lack of fold equity you generate and the high cost of playing a marginal hand out of position v this type of villian.

      As part of this play, you limp/re-raise 99-QQ and then mix up your play with AA/KK both limp/re-raising and limp/calling.

      PS.com strategy has us just dropping Q4o/Q5o, J5o/J6o, T6o and only playing Qxs, Jxs - where the kicker is "a bit better than usual" [not sure what this means, but I've assumed it is where the kicker is better than a 2 or 3].

      I've skim read the platinum C/C oop with showdown value article yet, which possibly contains the missing part of the PS.com SB strategy. What I struggle with though is playing weak K/Q/J/Txs hands and having to fold the flop, or call the flop, fold turn unimproved with one overcard and no draw. Given villian is likely betting flop and turn almost 100% I start to feel exploited folding where a good portion of the time I probably hold the best hand.

      Given the Stox line costs one SB less with more marginal hands - making the flop fold with trash, one overcard type hands easier, is this line worth pursuing?

      *Editors note: This post feels stupid. I keep rephrasing it but keep thinking it is just my spewy play and mind creating meaning out of random variance after a few weeks of paying out. Still, this situation is a leak in my game and relevant to this thread so I will add it here. Sorry if it is confusing or misleading.
    • Joshquan
      Joshquan
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      Joined: 01.01.2009 Posts: 479
      @ waiboy

      I dont like the sound of the idea of open limping against an aggresive BB, and what sort of range where you thinking of playing this with, the standard OR range or different? Against an aggressive BB i just prefer to tighten up my OR range, but always raise. By limp/callign you are playing OOP against an agressive player without the initaitive, basically you have to hit to win. If you are plannign on limp/folding this also sucks in my opinion as doing it too often will lead to being abused and being pushed of better hands pre and post flop.

      As far as limp/raising strong hands against aggro BB sounds like a good idea, but because of the poor situations created by doing it with other hands it is hard to balence and therefore id also leave it out and raise and mix up calling 3bet and cappign depending on players post flop tendancies.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by Joshquan
      By limp/callign you are playing OOP against an agressive player without the initaitive, basically you have to hit to win. If you are plannign on limp/folding this also sucks in my opinion as doing it too often will lead to being abused and being pushed of better hands pre and post flop.
      I feel by bet/calling I have to hit the flop, and connect pretty well to win v an almost auto two barrel. :f_cry:

      Still, I guess I'll work something out. :f_mad: