questions about PLO

    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Silver
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,595
      I was just wandering something. The edges in plo preflop are really small and raising mostly doesn't help lowering the players in the pot. Then what is the use of raising because even with hands with AAxx you only going to be comfortable if you flop an A. So isn't the postflopgame more important then the pre flop action and is there any other reason for hand selection preflop then playability postflop. Also isn't raising less good then in Hold'em because c-betting is hardly ever effective in PLO.

      Just some questions I had about the game hope someone with some expertise in the game can answer them for me.
  • 4 replies
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      In full ring raising in early position is indeed kinda pointless, because you will definately get some callers.

      In shorthanded game however, raising eliminates most players and you usually 1) take it down, 2) see flop with one opponent, 3) see flop with 2-3 opponents.

      1) good result;
      2) c-bet will make villain fold enough times to make it a profitable move;
      3) play the board.

      Sure, preflop edge is small, but raising gives you initiative and the ability to c-bet.
      c-betting is hardly ever effective in PLO.
      I don't know where you got this but c-bet works same as in hold'em: great posibility to take down the pot vs one opponent and not so great vs several opponents (meaning don't c-bet vs several villains when you do no hit the board).

      Position is always a key factor, so raise tighter when OOP to maniac or calling station, 3-bet lighter when in position.

      I would suggest you to change your mind about limping being better than raising, because if you limp, one will isolate-raise you in position and will take down the pot with c-bet bet most of the time (proving that c-bet works). This of course concerns low (10/25 cents) and better limits and shorthanded mostly, in micro levels it's so random the only good strategy is... i don't know.... straightforward play? :f_cool:
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Silver
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,595
      I was indeed talking about mico limit fullring( till PLO25) . Where I don't see a lot of people folding or 3-betting. Sorry that I didn't specify this enough.

      To make things clear I don't say that the theory is wrong. I just don't understand it and from my perspective the best way to learn the game is to question what people say is true instead of just doing it without really knowing why it is good.

      My point where I was coming from is this.

      When you almost never get heads-up in these games it seems to me that getting the initiative pre-flop is kind of pointless because it doesn't help eliminate players

      about the isoraise in position: most time something like this happened when I played some PLO. 4 callers called preflop button pots and the all call. This is the reason why I do question the raise since I see far less situations where you can get heads-up.

      also I don't know the statistics in PLO but I hold'em you only flop something 1 in 3 times. With 4 cards it seems the chance to hit something is far greater and since there are a lot of players in the low limits overplaying there hands. Isn't that a reason why c-bets are less likely to be successful then in Hold'em

      The main reason I think postflop play is more important then preflop play in PLO:

      1. The edges are small preflop so you can't really raise for value preflop

      2. postflop you are looking for nuts hands to continue where like 2 pair, trips straights, flushes and fullhouses or at least some hits with draws to these and 2 pair might even be considered marginal at best.

      3. It is hard to lower the number of players preflop.

      This has given me some more questions though :)

      1. What situations are you looking for preflop to raise and with what for sort holdings are you usely making these in position?

      2. Why is it so wrong to limp with holdings that have a good playability after the flop since the kind of hands you're looking to make play pretty well in an multiway pot and you get to see the flop with minimal investment or do you raise preflop because you're hand has good chance to hit postflop and it is easier to build a big pot this way when you hit?
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      We're talking about adapting to game flow here. If 4 players often limp/call raise - of course you limp behing because you raising does not push them out of the pot. This is valid for any limit.

      For example, when I 6 table, on one table my stats look like 27/22/7, on another 13/5/0 because a maniac or calling station is sitting to my left. No use raising those unless you have a hand that flops good. I believe that you always run into those station tables so your arguments are of course valid. But at least in PLO25 there are quite a few tables where you raise and take it preflop or get one caller and c-bet to win it.

      In holdem flopping middle pair is quite good, in PLO it's worthless, so it's relative. Also depends on reads - if villain cannot let his trash go - fold your missed hand and get max profit out of made hand. C-bet with air is worthless vs several opponents, that's for sure.

      I'm not arguing and postflop play being superior to preflop in PLO, it's obvious.

      1) Raising situations. I raise about 13% avg. of my hands. If the table is normal/passive, I raise like 20%, if a maniac/station is present, I raise way less. I raise with hands that can flop the nuts obv. Button open raise is wider of course. Again, it's hard to say anything about the lowest limits, I bet it's fit or fold in those, but in a bit higher limits raising preflop eliminates at least 3 players (relative).

      2) It is not wrong to limp, but then you will NEVER have initiative in PLO which is immensely important. I suggest you observe some higher stakes tables where a guy with 80/50/20 stats is owning the whole table. You think he's hitting all of the hands? Hardly, he just has initiative so you have to play fit or fold against him. Lets say you hit top pair vs him - are you ready to all the way with it with no real draw, and he's pounding the pot real hard?

      I raise to get initiative - if villain misses he has to fold (most of the time, unless he wants to make plays), I don't have to fold if I miss.

      When you limp and hit a monster, you will hardly ever stack your opponent. Having a wide raising range, hitting lets me win a stack easier because villain knows I have a wide range and stacks off with two pair for example.

      Again, if your usual table is made of bad players who cant fold - sure, limp more, raise less.

      P.S. You get alot of HU situations in a bit higher limits if you raise.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Silver
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,595
      thx, Jackalof you helped me a lot by answering my questions. Was not adjusting game flow and now I have some instead of why you should and where to look for of I do.