[NL20-NL50] NL25 folding JJ preflop

  • 12 replies
    • Crokid
      Crokid
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 133
      In this example I wanted to say that I don t like calling here oop. Is my line OK?
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Its 4-handed but you don't shove JJ AI pre. Why?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I would shove over 4-bet, since you´re ahead his bluffs, and TT+/AK 4-bet range
    • Crokid
      Crokid
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 133
      I didn t shove because villain s 4-bet range is AA,KK,QQ and AK. How can it be profitable to shove against this range,when having in mind that villain is NEVER 4-bet bluffing that big(14$)
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by Crokid
      I didn t shove because villain s 4-bet range is AA,KK,QQ and AK. How can it be profitable to shove against this range,when having in mind that villain is NEVER 4-bet bluffing that big(14$)
      How do you know his range is that strong? As I said earlier its 4-handed so his range should be way wider than that.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,696
      I think it is nh, super marginal to shove here with JJ imo, and I agree that he is never 4-bet bluffing 14.

      How do you know his range is that strong? As I said earlier its 4-handed so his range should be way wider than that.


      In fact many players don't adjust when the table gets shorter, I don't think a 14/13 will necessarily loosen up his 4betting range just because its become 4 handed
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Crokid
      I didn t shove because villain s 4-bet range is AA,KK,QQ and AK. How can it be profitable to shove against this range,when having in mind that villain is NEVER 4-bet bluffing that big(14$)
      Not really sure his range is that tight, but if you think he´d always would 4-bet only QQ+/AK, then better is maybe just call pf and play postflop. I think heś range should be TT+ especially if you have been aggressive
    • AceOnRiver
      AceOnRiver
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      Joined: 02.08.2006 Posts: 608
      There are 3 ways to play jacks,,, all wrong :(

      This is an interesting example of a "value" 3bet/fold.

      Obviously coldcalling Jacks is ugly like hell. However 3betting because your range is so much ahead his makes not always sense (we call hands like AJ because we are better).

      For a 3bet fold, he has to push better hands(and not bluffs)
      and call with worse hands (ok we get out some of his little pockets preflop that could land a suckout on us if we just call so thats good too)

      I do make 3bets with Jacks usually because i believe that gives my opponent a chance to 4bet with AA,KK,QQ and call with weaker hands so i dont find it troublesome to go AI on a board with no overcards wich wouldnt work if i'd just flat.
      But what kind of weaker hand am i actually expecting him (the avg semitag on nl50) to call me with that has less equity ?

      Well if the situation is not steal id probably expect calls from AK and TT, AK usually doesnt hit the flop and i can very often stack TT if no overcards show on the flop, but if i look at his cc range its like TT-QQ & AQs+
      Against that range my equity with jacks is no more than 45%.
      So i am not really valuebetting for value but i dont consider it a bluff either.
      Im doing it to protect my hand against suckout from pp and to allow my opponent to 4bet his superior hand giving me a chance to get away.

      I hardly 3bet any good pocketpairs or hands like AK and can get away from a hit. So im basically 3betting to avoid retarded postflop spots.
      Since i use elephant i dont really know if i can have a look how well im doing with JJ overall. But i do remember (using pt2) i was a great winner with AA & KK aswell as all pocketpairs, QQ was marginal aswell as jacks and TT was always minus hand ( wich obviously is a joke if im winning with 99 and i could always play TT in the same way)
    • Alan883
      Alan883
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      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      Judges say everytime the same thing. Shove JJ to be ahead of his bluffs and AK....then i 4.bet JJ and i allways loose and noone fold and show me everytime QQ+.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,696
      I think the key to playing JJ profitably is to pick your spots. Shoving over a huge 4-bet from a solid 14/13 TAG is not one of them, imo. Fold, save some money, and wait for a less marginal situation.
    • AceOnRiver
      AceOnRiver
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2006 Posts: 608
      Originally posted by mbml
      I think the key to playing JJ profitably is to pick your spots. Shoving over a huge 4-bet from a solid 14/13 TAG is not one of them, imo. Fold, save some money, and wait for a less marginal situation.

      big question is if call > 3bet/fold here if you think u can not 3bet/push
    • ethanrox
      ethanrox
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      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 434
      just ship it.

      If you ship vs QQ+,AK you are losing about ,27 cents on every dollar that gets in so something like $5,5 and get compensated by 36% share from the around 10$ pot already. So you are looking at $-1,8 loss in EV.

      If you ship vs 99+,AK you are losing 4 cents so something like $ 0,8 and you gain $5 from the pot so $4,2 gain in EV.


      PS.
      I think we may very well weight differently AA and KK vs AK and 99+(QQ) in his 4betting range because of the rather large size.