SSS gone wrong.

    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I play SSS, currently NL100. My stack was down to $16, so I topped it up. Somehow, instead of $20, I ended up with $100, and before I could sit out or close the table, this hand was dealt.

      Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50/$1.00BB (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

      UTG+1 ($103.26)
      UTG+2 ($96.27)
      MP1 ($142.65)
      MP2 ($100.20)
      MP3 ($141.50)
      CO ($44.45)
      Button ($100.00) (Hero)
      SB ($19.00)
      BB ($144.90)
      UTG ($21.50)

      Preflop: Hero is Button with K:diamond: , K:spade:
      1 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.00, UTG+2 calls $1.00, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1.00, CO calls $1.00, Hero raises to $8.00, 3 folds, UTG+2 calls $7.00, MP3 calls $7.00, 1 folds

      Standard raises preflop, and two callers, so far so good. I know that BSS betting is different, but I have no idea how, I haven't read anything on it at all.

      Flop: Q:spade: , 6:diamond: , 7:spade: ( $27.5 )
      UTG+2 bets $10.00, 1 folds, Hero raises to $40.00, UTG+2 calls $30.00,

      I suspect the donk is probably playing a Q, but the board has draws, so I raise here. I would happily take this pot down right now, but if he is drawing, I want him to pay more than it is worth. Is this ok?

      Turn: 5:heart: ( $107.5 )
      UTG+2 raises All-In $48.27, Hero calls $48.27,

      All in, nothing to be done here.

      River: 4:club: ( $204.04 )


      Final Pot: $201.04
  • 18 replies
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      I suspect the donk is probably playing a Q, but the board has draws, so I raise here. I would happily take this pot down right now, but if he is drawing, I want him to pay more than it is worth. Is this ok?


      If the donk is in fact not a donk you are in trouble here. After the PF action villain cold hold anything if he is a donk or most probably a PP(maybe SC /suited A) if he's decent. A small donkbet from a donk usually means a weak made hand or a draw (your raise is good here). A small (although big enough in this case) donkbet from a decent player OOP is most likely not a draw but probably a strong hand ( he wants you to raise with your OP and commit yourself to the pot). Donk's love to check their strong hands.

      Unless you know villain it is impossible not to become tied to the pot after such a drawy flop.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Nice hand! You played it correctly on every street. If he beats you it's just bad luck.

      Best regards,
      Puschkin81
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      @ Nunki
      As a limper preflop, I don't put him on AA or QQ. Rarely do the limpers have these hands. Only occasionally does someone try to be that cute. I don't mind if he is holding AQ, even suited, but this is also unlikely. I am more worried about the FD, or a pocket pair like fives or eights. I could also be against sixes or sevens, in which case I am already done for. The turn doesn't complete any draws that he could be holding. If he isn't a donk, then the only hand that makes sense would be the set of sixes or sevens. But in that case wouldn't he check to the raiser on this flop and call any bet, then hit me on the turn, either donk or check/raise? Or have I got that wrong? Is that exactly what a donk would do?

      The good thing about SSS is that most people don't know that they should fold to a raise from the short stack player, and they will call their weak hands, like Qxs.

      @ Puschkin
      :)
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      If he isn't a donk, then the only hand that makes sense would be the set of sixes or sevens. But in that case wouldn't he check to the raiser on this flop and call any bet, then hit me on the turn, either donk or check/raise?


      This is possible of course. Leading into the PFR is another way to go and not often taken by donks with strong hands.
    • undercover82
      undercover82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.12.2006 Posts: 813
      Actually the turn completes an 9-8 OESD that he might have semibluffed on flop to try to take the pot away cheaply , and then called your raise anyway.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Yeah, it does, but my point is, that is an unlikely holding, given the preflop action. Calling 7BB is a big move, and 89 would be so bad, that I win anyway. Not that that stops them, thankfully.
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      I´m not a NL BBS Player, so I´m more asking then suggesting.
      Isn´t it better to fold on the turn here? I mean after the flop where we raised his donkbet, he put himself all-in on the turn. He might only have Top Pair Top Kicker, but I think there is a pretty good chance that he has a set or straight here.

      I think that an overpair KK is overplayed here. But I really hope to read some thoughts from other players who actually play NL BBS NL100 and higher.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I'd be interested in an experienced BSS players view here as well. I look at it like this. On the turn, his donk bet gives me 3.22:1 pot odds. Means I need to win 1 in four, and make a profit. I reckon I will win that many at least, but I could be wrong about that.

      EDIT:

      I just did this equilator on a possible hand range.

      Board: Qs 7s 6d 5h
      Dead:

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 27.431 % 27.431 % 0.000 % 72.569 % 44-TT, AQ, KT+, QT+, Q9s, JTs, 98
      Player 2: 72.569 % 72.569 % 0.000 % 27.431 % KK

      I think this is a likely hand range, and contains the hands that will beat me. There could be more. But with these, my equity is 72.5% on the turn. I must play.
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      I would say that AQ and TT are not in his limping Range here preflop. Maybe 99 neither.
      And on the Turn he should put you at least on AQ, KK, AA, maybe QQ, so why does he still donks? Honestly I still see no hand who would play like villian did which we beat.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Ok, lets adjust the range. PP 4 to 8, Q8-QJ, and 89.

      Board: Qs 7s 6d 5h
      Dead:

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 42.374 % 42.374 % 0.000 % 57.626 % 44-88, Q8+, 98
      Player 2: 57.626 % 57.626 % 0.000 % 42.374 % KK

      I still have almost 6:4 equity edge, and getting 3.2:1. Do you believe that this play means I am always beaten?
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      These are just my thoughts. ;) I´m only playing NL SSS myself and never BBS, so I do not know. You´re right that you are not almost beaten. But I think that villian should have to put you on either AQ or an Overpair like AA, KK here, because of your Reraise. you would not do that with e.g. AK.

      So I would ask me with what would he go All-In on the Turn anyway?
      But I also could ask myself, why isn´t he just checking and then goes All-In after I betted the Turn.

      ... honestly I´m confused by that hand. I might would time out before I could decided if I either call or fold here on the Turn. :D ;)
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying. I was in SSS mode myself, which means that prone to all in with a hand like this. I really don't know what the correct BSS play would be, though Puschkin did say correctly played.

      The factor you have to take into consideration is, what did he call the original raise with? Preflop, he put 7BB in without any hesitation. Unless he had AA - QQ, that was pretty much a mistake, and a bad one, and I didn't consider at all that he would have those hands. Since he can play that badly preflop, he could easily continue to play just as badly post flop. His donk bet on the flop looked to me like a top pair bet. I play 8 tables, so I just fired the raise straight back without too much thought, and he was committed. He called, and really, there was no way out for either of us. I can't fold this turn under these circumstances. When the 4 came on the river, I thought for sure he would show pocket 8's or Q8.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Lets say I have PT and PA, which as far as I know, doesn't work in real time on Titan. If i know the stat on this guy are:

      Hands Vpip Pfr AF
      60 46 8 0.6

      that would make this a no brainer, right?
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      If these stats at least contain 100 hands, I would agree. But it would bother me, that Villian would have a very low AF and donks All-In on the Turn. ;)

      But when Puschkin say it was a good play, I believe it. :)
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I looked up his stats afterwards in PT, and this is what they were. He also lost over $100 in those 60 hands, so I think he just wasn't very good.

      You have given me cause for thought though. Against a tight player, I would have been beaten for sure. Makes it very hard to play poker when you have to consider that all the time.
    • altruist
      altruist
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 121
      My two cents/opinion:

      With a large stack and KK, if you're going to push all-in or plan on investing a lot of money, make a very large raise preflop. Something like $10-12, or more. For one you reduce the risk of having to lose any money at all, two if someone re-raises you, you have a pretty good idea he's on AA.

      And most importantly: When you raise a very large percentage of your stack, your opponent is ALWAYS making a mistake by calling without AA.

      Anyway you may choose to play it weaker pre-flop to get callers, but you need to be able to fold the hand if you don't flop a monster or you want to play for a smaller pot. For a large pot, you want to flop a K, a straight draw, or a flush draw. (The value in the straight draw is often you'll be the only one with the K.)

      If I'm not mistaken, the idea behind the short stack strategy is the fact it's unprofitable for your opponent to call you with a speculative hand, since he can only win so much from you and the odds of him actually getting a monster flop is very low.
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Originally posted by aciddrop
      The factor you have to take into consideration is, what did he call the original raise with? Preflop, he put 7BB in without any hesitation. Unless he had AA - QQ, that was pretty much a mistake, and a bad one, and I didn't consider at all that he would have those hands.
      If he was sure he could stack you off if he hit a set with his PP the mistake isn't at all as big as you make it.. Apart from that I agree with you :)

      I won't risk analysing the hand myself though.. one pair hands are where I got my biggest leak at the moment I think - would probably make a crying call on the turn as you did, but I'm not at all sure it's the right play - Letswait for an expert to arrive :)

      Best regards,
      Mugge
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Yeah, interesting that this has aroused more comment.

      I'm with Altruist here now. Raise more preflop, and take the money without any further action, or get a really, really bad call. I wasn't actually making a choice to keep people in the pot with the smaller bet here, I was just raising according to the SSS guide, as I had never played a big stack before, and this was an accident.

      Even with a pocket pair, I don't think it could be right to call, because we don't both have 15 times the raise left in our stacks. Again, that isn't going to stop some people, but raising more preflop would make this move even worse.

      As it happens, he was a worse player than me, and overvalued his QTs, not spades, so paid me off.

      I am now playing BSS, so have a little more understanding of some of what was expressed in this thread. There is more at stake with the big stack, so it is easier to let go against aggression with marginal hands. With a short stack, KK is almost never a marginal hand.