Anyone else feel like they lose to fish a lot?

    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      This month I've had several sessions where I seem to have donated stacks to huge (80+vpip) Fish with incredibly high Aggression Frequencies. I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm adapting a bit Too much and calling some of their wacky 3barrels and Raises a bit lighter than I need to.....

      However at the same time I think I'm making some really bad folds against them in spots which would be standard against normal players.... I don't even know which hands to upload because I was sure enough of myself in the past that I didn't grab them.

      Maybe I'm going slightly crazy with this line of thought and I'm only remembering the bad times, but has it ever crossed any elses mind that they might actually have a huge leak or two against incredibly bad players?
  • 21 replies
    • Berzerger
      Berzerger
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      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 910
      Well, when people are actually bad enough to bet three streets with middle pair no kicker (and believe they're ahead), it might not be very useful to apply fourth level meta game on them. If all else fails, return to ABC poker against those guys.

      Personally, I sometimes feel like I don't have any viable strategy against short stacked fish. There's no consistency in their play (e.g. limp-calling aces) and even though they have no idea what they're doing it's hard to figure out how to beat them without premium hands. But stats and reads facilitate that problem.
    • qcjunior
      qcjunior
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      Joined: 07.09.2008 Posts: 144
      NO! I feel they lose a lot to me.

      Its a love hate relationship,I love them, they hate me.lol.

      I will never slowplay or bluff a calling station.I only value bet, value bet,and more value bets.Although it would be very difficult to play without a reasonable amount of stats.Tight is Right!
      I used to get a little jealous when I see them play hand after hand, and clearly wining <35% of these hands.I even thought that,well I am a PS member and by default I should be better than them,so I can play a little looser and beat them at their own game.Wrong. The big problem with this is I am no longer playing a style that I have been memorizing(TAG),by playing looser(more hands)I have now lowered myself to his level to chase this guy,in fact becoming the calling station :s_rolleyes:
      Calling stations are like shooting yourself in the foot, It hurts and you limp a lot.
      (TAG)Tight is Right, you get to hit them over the head with the cards, kick them in the nutz, and take their money.

      ______________________________________
      I will never surrender,I will defend this island with bullets.
    • koaesica
      koaesica
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      Joined: 31.08.2008 Posts: 1,066
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Maybe I'm going slightly crazy with this line of thought and I'm only remembering the bad times, but has it ever crossed any elses mind that they might actually have a huge leak or two against incredibly bad players?
      I've thought about this too. I think I talk myself into bad calls against fishes mostly because "omg he's a fish, he's probably spewing" and then I make a call which I would've never done against another (better) player. Really trying to fix this leak, because it both costs me money and contributes to tilt...
    • soonish
      soonish
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      Joined: 28.06.2008 Posts: 102
      I remember more the time when I don t win from the fish....
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Originally posted by koaesica
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Maybe I'm going slightly crazy with this line of thought and I'm only remembering the bad times, but has it ever crossed any elses mind that they might actually have a huge leak or two against incredibly bad players?
      I've thought about this too. I think I talk myself into bad calls against fishes mostly because "omg he's a fish, he's probably spewing" and then I make a call which I would've never done against another (better) player. Really trying to fix this leak, because it both costs me money and contributes to tilt...
      yeah, I think that might be the problem I have. I think it may be that I slowly build up a list of reads on him, including good reasons to call his spewy looking plays and get a bit carried away?


      I guess, without specific reads its a good idea to view;

      1) Potsize bets as Top-pairs (Turn+river, Cbets are different)
      2) Shoves or overbets as strong 2-pair or better even if he's a 90/60 fish.
      3) cbet raises as two-pair or better (again even if he's a 90/60 fish)
      4) mindonk/3bet Drawy flop as more likely Set than Draw? Draw often minbet/calls? (Not sure on this one, it seems to vary drastically from villain to villain, Often its a mindonk/fold too)

      Feel free to add any others you can think of. Oh, these are my Full Tilt Reads, Partypoker is different imo.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      I was playing against some 84/4 guy last night and I could not stack him, i mean he calling most of my conti-bet so I couldn't win by raise PF/bet flop because I was OOP on him. I couldn't bet all streets to make him fold cause he was a station.
      Do I just call everything IP of him and wait for the nuts? or loosen up my range of made hands post-flop?
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      I was playing against some 84/4 guy last night and I could not stack him, i mean he calling most of my conti-bet so I couldn't win by raise PF/bet flop because I was OOP on him. I couldn't bet all streets to make him fold cause he was a station.
      Do I just call everything IP of him and wait for the nuts? or loosen up my range of made hands post-flop?
      Valuebet 3-streets potsize, (overbetting river if nesesery) to get it in when you hit 2nd pair any kicker or better, so limp or raise small (like 2, 2.5x or 3x) with hands skewed towards High-Cards. K4s, Q6 J8 even, that sort of stuff, stay away from mid-Low SC's etc. Miss cbets when you don't hit and just valuebet when you hit Top Pair or Second pair. Depending on his Aggression feel free to cbet the A-high nuts as well AK on 356 board for example and just Check Back Turn and River.

      I hope that helps, please don't take my word as gospel it just seems to have worked for me against this sort of guy before and I think it makes sense.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      I was playing against some 84/4 guy last night and I could not stack him, i mean he calling most of my conti-bet so I couldn't win by raise PF/bet flop because I was OOP on him. I couldn't bet all streets to make him fold cause he was a station.
      Do I just call everything IP of him and wait for the nuts? or loosen up my range of made hands post-flop?
      Valuebet 3-streets potsize, (overbetting river if nesesery) to get it in when you hit 2nd pair any kicker or better, so limp or raise small (like 2, 2.5x or 3x) with hands skewed towards High-Cards. K4s, Q6 J8 even, that sort of stuff, stay away from mid-Low SC's etc. Miss cbets when you don't hit and just valuebet when you hit Top Pair or Second pair. Depending on his Aggression feel free to cbet the A-high nuts as well AK on 356 board for example and just Check Back Turn and River.

      I hope that helps, please don't take my word as gospel it just seems to have worked for me against this sort of guy before and I think it makes sense.
      That's fine. Thanks.
      please don't take my word as gospel

      I just hope this doesn't send me broke. haha just kidding.
      Any reason why small SCs are bad? I mean shouldn't we be looking for hands that can hit more often?
    • cactusbob
      cactusbob
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      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 24
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      I was playing against some 84/4 guy last night and I could not stack him, i mean he calling most of my conti-bet so I couldn't win by raise PF/bet flop because I was OOP on him. I couldn't bet all streets to make him fold cause he was a station.
      Do I just call everything IP of him and wait for the nuts? or loosen up my range of made hands post-flop?
      Preflop, against fish like that I usually look for hands that make TP hand and value bet as hard as I can. For example Q8+,Kx,Ax is good. SCs and stuff I don't bother, because I'm never looking to barrel when I miss.

      Usually after I miss a flop I just shut down. For one, my Kx hand has a decent amount of showdown value, and you have close to 0 fold equity.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Thanks cactusbob. Most definitely will help in the future when I find him again :)
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
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      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      ... I think it may be that I slowly build up a list of reads on him, including good reasons to call his spewy looking plays and get a bit carried away?
      Some players are just random bad. They accidentally mix things up by making mistakes and sometimes mix it up intentionally but in all the wrong spots, throw in a few bluffs in terrible spots and there's your internet donkey. :f_love:
    • Volrath89
      Volrath89
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      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 2,170
      In my opinion you shouldn't really try to get reads on fish. You usually can't put them on a range (if their VPIP is >50 they basically have any 2), you can't know wtf is going in their mind and I don't think they play every hand (or group of hands, like TP, draws, etc) the same way, they just play the hand as they "feel" it. They are fish.

      So, I'd obviously go for three barrells with TP, two or even three barrels too with middle pair (here a good kicker is better, a bad kicker is a check on the river most of the times for me), and depending on the fish, well I'm actually "experimenting" a bit and going for three barrels bluff when I have no showdown value. The point behind this is that they have such a wide range, than most of the time they have nothing, and you'd be surprised the amount of fish who calls two barrels and folds to a river bet.

      You also have another big advantage against fish you don't have against anyone else. You don't have to balance. They are not looking how much are you betting, with what type of cards, etc. They just look at their cards. So you can just plan the hand on the flop and make 3 pot bets or one overbet if necessary to end all-in against him if your hand is worth it.

      Also, my lines against a fish are usually b/f, I don't find that much aggressive fishes, and if you do, well I'd say you should be a bit tighter preflop and choose a range that makes TP and they play for you stack.


      Well, thats all hehe long post :)
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Nice post Volrath, I do agree what you say about their hand groupings, but I think it is still possible to narrow down their range postflop. You say you don't like to take reads on fish, as for myself though, I have found out that it is possible to get some very nice reads on fish which make it a lot easier to decide what to do.

      In general I'm thinking things like;

      "Betsizing - Fish are totally unaware that we can work out what they're betsizes mean and some of them stick to them like clockwork depending on what hand they have"

      "What will he raise my cbet with? Some Fish like to bluffraise a lot, play draws and sometimes even mid-pairs very aggressively, on the other hand some still only do this with a premium hand. If I can estimate what he might do this with without too much risk I'm pretty happy"

      "Quite How loose will he call me down? Quite How loose does he bet multiple streets. - VERY useful for a guess at his later lines and ranges"

      Premium and Very strong hands on flop; "Does he suddenly play passively with monsters, minibet them over betting large with them or take even stronger lines than before?"

      and Less Useful - Timing Tells. A fish is often playing just 1 maybe 2 tables and there are plenty of hands he's instabetting or instacalling with for example, Air, Draws and Strong hands (and slightly above mediocre hands) fall into this category. However, I find that If a Fish tanks for a while this is more often than not a weak pair. If I have 2nd pair turn and fish Check/TANK Calls I'm far more likely to bet that river as well.


      I may have neglected to mention a point or two, but all the things I have written above I have found to be very useful in the past.

      Hope it helps.
    • Targetme
      Targetme
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      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 1,888
      well if they play 80 you play 40 vs em and outplay em post flop not hard..
    • pinnryder
      pinnryder
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      Joined: 10.11.2009 Posts: 597
      Remember that poker is a game of negative expectation, meaning that when you win a hand you win it because you played it well or you play tight so you feel like you are entitled to winning because you play good. So you dont give the hand much more thought.
      But when you loose a hand its because you get a bad beat or the other guy made a bad call, so he plays wrong youre right but you still loose. These bad beats will stick in your head much more than the times you win, resulting in thinking that you loose against bad players all the time but in the end youre actually taking theyre money.

      Realising that helped me a lot dealing with bad beats and downswings, where it only comes to variance...
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      I've seen a lot of over-agressive regs go to the felt against fish with marginals they would have folded on the flop to me [or another reg]. So who then is the fish?
      Best way I've found to play them is just play my standard game but with fewer SCs etc as mentioned in an earlier post. I make a 3BB (or even 2.5BB) raise instead of my standard 4BB and cbet much less unless the board is very dry. If I'm caled I shut down. I have to think very hard if I raise, get called and they donk bet the flop. IF the do it regular I may call/raise depending on situation, but against a player I don't see often I will mostly fold my AQ AK underpair to TP on flop, whatever.
      Patience gets these guys stacks, not agression. And put the ego away because yes your JJ is beat on that 4568 board and yes he did min bet that flush on the riv so fold your TP weak kicker.
      I've been using these pilchards to buy things for three years now, including my nice shiny new pc and 42in plasma tv, 2 new bikes, blah blah (I play 2 or 3 tables NL FR $5) and I love them but they're so inconsistent I don't think stats help much; it's pretty obvious by their play what you're up against.
      Hand ranges? I got two cards I call!
      And yes I've been stacked by J4s and T3o but that's just funny; and anyway, who the hell wants to play Chris Ferguson instead? Not me I like money! :)
    • paranoid1974
      paranoid1974
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      Joined: 23.05.2009 Posts: 21
      Just last night. There were 3 hands in particular where the fish called or reraised my bets with weak hands and were rewarded with favorable cards. All 3 times these players had -10BB/100 or worse and had a loose aggressive table image. Take these hands out of my session and I would've had a nice profit. Instead I ended the night with a loss of 1.5 buy ins.
    • qcjunior
      qcjunior
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      Joined: 07.09.2008 Posts: 144
      There are a few different types of calling station fish, I find I do need to have reads/stats,I need to know if they are a raiser or a chaser,100%c-better,or caller
      I think with a few stats,and post flop skills that these fish now read like open books. These fish play like DaPhunk has pointed out , almost exactly is what I have seen.


      1) Potsize bets as Top-pairs (Turn+river, Cbets are different)
      2) Shoves or overbets as strong 2-pair or better even if he's a 90/60 fish.
      3) cbet raises as two-pair or better (again even if he's a 90/60 fish)

      4) mindonk/3bet Drawy flop as more likely Set than Draw? Draw often minbet/calls? (Not sure on this one, it seems to vary drastically from villain to villain, Often its a mindonk/fold too)


      - with #4 it depends on the fishes stats.
      :If he is a c-better/raiser and suddenly mindonks/checks,he is more likely on a set or better.


      Pre flop with a very aggressive fishy(90/60) that raises every time as a 3-bet or potsize on every card,I have to tighten my range against him,because I may be pot committed by the turn or river if I enter the hand.
      Pre flop with a passive fishy(80/4)that calls everything,but never raises,I loosen my open raising range.If I have a made hand,its value bet time.
      They all love to bluff,if I have the nuts by the river,50%of the time I will give them the opportunity to out play me by checking and letting them bluff a missed flush/str draw.

      I think most of these CS fish have something in common,that is,they all learned how to play holdem by watching _______ play any two on TV!
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
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      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      to update the original post a bit:

      Some players are just random bad. They accidentally mix things up by making mistakes and sometimes mix it up intentionally but in all the wrong spots, throw in a few bluffs in terrible spots and there's your internet donkey. :f_love:
      Random isn't the right word for it. In the games I play, FLHU, many players just lack experience and handle on fundamentals so it's not "random", they're thinking something but what that is is difficult to pin down with the amount of information available. Now how to handle this is something I'm trying to get sorted out lately.

      Playing a donkey can be more frustrating at times since thinking a level ahead of your opponent is easier against a good thinking player. So naturally these clashes are more emotionally charged to they stick out in our memory. So, lowering that level of frustration (or whatever your feeling is) at those times is what I'm working on right now.
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