Playing top-pair OOP without initiative

    • PetterG2
      PetterG2
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 224
      Those situations are always bothering me, especially in multiway pots. I know I have to adjust to the type of player I am up against, but still. If I lead out and get raised, what do I do? Check/raising will only (or at least most of the times) make worse hands fold, and if they call you have real nutcase on the turn. I serious discussion regarding this topic would be awesome.

      Some examplehands:

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Replayer
      Hero ($5)
      BB ($4.70)
      UTG ($2.21)
      UTG+1 ($9.77)
      CO ($5.26)
      BTN ($5.03)

      Dealt to Hero A:heart: J:heart:

      UTG raises to $0.20, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.18, fold

      FLOP ($0.45) 3:diamond: T:club: J:spade:

      Hero ????????



      Villains: Raiser: tag, btn: passive/weak
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Replayer
      Hero ($7.29)
      BB ($6.97)
      UTG ($4.98)
      CO ($5.78)
      BTN ($5.12)

      Dealt to Hero Q:spade: K:spade:

      fold, CO raises to $0.17, BTN calls $0.17, Hero calls $0.15, fold

      FLOP ($0.56) 6:club: Q:heart: 5:spade:

      Hero ??????


      Villains: Raise: passive tag, other guy: unknown
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Replayer
      Hero ($13.59)
      BB ($5)
      UTG ($1.55)
      UTG+1 ($7.37)
      CO ($5.38)
      BTN ($5)

      Dealt to Hero J:club: A:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.17, Hero calls $0.15, BB calls $0.12

      FLOP ($0.51) 3:club: A:diamond: 8:spade:

      Hero ???????
  • 12 replies
    • wquinn636
      wquinn636
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2009 Posts: 64
      Genuine question here- in each of those situations, why did you call behind out of position rather than fold or raise?
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      These hands shouldn't be played in the first place imo. calling a raise with AJ and KQ on the SB? The whole concept of posistion is the eairlyer you are to act the stronger your hand must be. Are you not familliar with the gap princaple? Your raising range should be wider than your range you call a raise with. Domination is death in poker and thats why we play less hands out of posistion. The other thing about flatting these hands pre flop is your not getting any additional infomation which in turn leaves you uncertain post flop which will lead to expensive mistakes. It also doesnt do your non SD winning any good.

      AJ especially is throwing money away. seeing as its correct folding AQ UTG on a FR table why would you call with AJ on SB? <<<<LEAK.

      KQ again a very eaisly dominated hand. As you wouldnt raise UTG on a FR table why would you call a raise on the SB? <<<<LEAK. All you can do in the exarple above for KQ is chek call flop then donk turn.
    • delete461
      delete461
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.07.2008 Posts: 1,036
      agree with above

      calling these hands oop is a big leak in your game imo. Instead of trying to play these tough spots correctly, try to avoid putting yourself into tough spots in the first place.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Originally posted by delete461
      agree with above

      calling these hands oop is a big leak in your game imo. Instead of trying to play these tough spots correctly, try to avoid putting yourself into tough spots in the first place.
      +1.

      You should be the one getting your opponents to make tough dessisions...not the other way aroung ;)
    • PetterG2
      PetterG2
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 224
      I have a positive winrate from sb and bb with all those hands, so I don't think I can consider it a leak. I will look more into it though, so thanks for the tips guys. :s_biggrin:
    • DiSpirit
      DiSpirit
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2009 Posts: 40
      Wow, I'm shocked.

      Let me get this straight - this is SH nl5 and calling a raise with AJ/KQ is bad ? I understand that it makes some sense for FR, but in SH you raise so much wider that at least in these limits AJ will almost always be the dominating card, not dominated.

      "
      Genuine question here- in each of those situations, why did you call behind out of position rather than fold or raise? "

      Okey, reraising seems logical but you will called by mid-pockets/A9s+ and from my experience even with very marginal hands often enough to put you in the same difficult spots but with much more money invested

      Please someone explain if I'm misunderstanding something with some logic/experience behind it, cos it would be nice to know if I have this leak too

      Now in almost all of these situations I would just raise, because I try to create aggressive table image for myself, but I'm pretty sure it's not the most profitable play
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Sorry i missed the fact it was SH. Still.

      If we tak the eairly posistions out of FR you have a 6-max game. So what hands can be played from MP? AJ is still a no no unless your in the HJ (Highjack) CO or BU. KQ is more questionable there can be arguements both for and against. But re poping it pre flop would be a mistake IMO.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      Sorry i missed the fact it was SH. Still.

      If we tak the eairly posistions out of FR you have a 6-max game. So what hands can be played from MP? AJ is still a no no unless your in the HJ (Highjack) CO or BU. KQ is more questionable there can be arguements both for and against. But re poping it pre flop would be a mistake IMO.
      Ang OMFG!!!! Im silver again wtf?? Ok ok i was a lazey tard in december and hardley played :D rofl.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      And OMFG!!!! Im silver again wtf?? Ok ok i was a lazey tard in december and hardley played :D rofl.[/quote]
    • FakeLunatic
      FakeLunatic
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.08.2009 Posts: 91
      Hi :)

      IMHO, this all depends on situation, when I get top pair I bet for protection, and not giving drawing hands free card. If I am OOP, I check only if I'm sure opponent will bet so I can checkraise him.

      First hand, I would bet for protection.

      Second, tag will probably cbet since it is a good cbet board (dry), button might call, and I can raise then, so I get more money in the pot.

      And third hand... I could check to see what a raiser will do, since him being passive means that he will only bet monsters, and flop is not so scary that you would have to protect much. If you bet and he calls, you don't know if he has anything.
      On the other side, I feel like pot control is better option, betting into players and trying to take pot right away.

      There, my two cents :)
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      In SH you cant lay down these hands from SB, you call only then with PPs and AK, AQ ?
      3betting here is OK , but you cant do it always imo, especially, if opponents are tight players - they dont call you with worse.
      On flop I usually c/call - in these examples the board is quite dry, so you dont need much protection. If your opponent bets again on blank turn, you have a decision to make and it depends much on reads: can he double barrel with air or valuebet weaker hands?
      these are trouble hands and may be dominated, but usually your TPGK is enough to win a pot (though not a big one).
    • delete461
      delete461
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.07.2008 Posts: 1,036
      On a loose table we try to play tight, on a tight table we loosen up. Since this is NL5 it is safe to assume the table is very loose, so we should tighten our range right up, wait for very strong hands and ship our money in. In these spots if I see myself being ahead of villains range I 3-bet, if Im not sure then its a fold. I still think calling here is a horrible, horrible move as it leaves us in this exact spot:

      1. We have a marginal hand
      2. We have absolutely no idea what villain could be holding - if we hit top pair we still have a problem
      3. Villain has position on us and can control the size of the pot
      4. Villain has the initiative and can often take it down with a continuation bet.

      Look again at the hands above and put yourself in villains shoes - he is in a very comfortable spot being in position and with initiative. If I was that villain I would be happy having the blinds call my openraises with hands like these.