SnG Strategy Confusion

    • HerbGuy
      HerbGuy
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2010 Posts: 12
      Okay, I've been playing online poker for a while now with great frustration at a number of sites. Most of the time it's bad beat after bad beat (i.e. AA downed by 63o) for me. So even though I've been playing a couple of years I still consider myself a beginner as I have yet to achieve anything but a hatred for online poker. I'm hoping to see if I can figure out what I've been doing wrong by following the SnG Strategy from PokerStrategy.com.

      First, I want to say thanks for the tremendous information you have available but I'm confused by the strategy and am hoping for some clarification. So I can understand the Early Phase playing tight and building on your chip count slowly while (hopefully) most of the donks get knocked out. Now it's the Middle phase that has my confused.

      If I have less than 24 but more than 13 I would think that I would loosen my opening cards rather than tighten up? I mean, I'm not at all lucky and these pre-flop cards don't come around very often for me..so if I wait, won't my chip count continue to be depleted as I'm just waiting around for that good pocket to start with? And then of course, when I do go in...most folks fold because of the real tight image.

      Any further clarifications on this strategy would be very helpful, thanks
  • 12 replies
    • evertonroar
      evertonroar
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 737
      I think (disclaimer that im only a slightly winning player so maybe im wrong) that you need to combine the playing tighter with steals and resteals in postion to maintain your chip stack while waiting for the big hand.

      I think the main reason we tighten up is that our opponents will start calling looser meaning we lose value if we push looser.

      The other reason is that as the blinds are a larger proportion of our stack, we can play less speculative hands (suited conectors, baby pairs) - just to darn expensive

      my approach is to play tight until approaching the bubble (play for value and take the obvious steals). then play the bubble smart (agresive but not stupid) and you shoudl make the money enough to turn a profit (assuming your itm games is ok).

      I find in the micro and low stakes games opponenets call way to lose so i raise more when entering the pot. minimum 4xbb +1 for each limper should get rid of the 63o while keeping in the second best hand. if its really loose (turbo or $1) i sometimes raise 5-7 BB to get this result
    • z4tz
      z4tz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.05.2008 Posts: 2,043
      Hello Herbguy.

      The strategy is aiming for the late phase of the SNG really, this is where the real edge starts for us, the push n fold phase!

      My tip is to study the latest phase a lot, because you dont need any extra chips before entering this to win (it makes it easier yes, but its no guarantee).
      I can only say that i at perhaps 50% of my tables go down to 10BB and have only played 1-2 hands and i still win them.

      Watch some sng-videos and get an idea for how they are played. Next up i would recomend downloading ICM-trainer light and ICM-trainer here on the website and start learning a bit about ICM. This really improves your game.

      About raising big ammounts: i found that the fish can call with crap anyway and if you think about it, if he calls with 63o against your AA, at least 4/5 times you will win and gain money. But sometimes he will suck out on you and those hurt, but you just gotta think about the long run all the time (was my play good, not was the result good)
    • HerbGuy
      HerbGuy
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2010 Posts: 12
      I honestly feel that most times I do get my money in with the best hand which is why I do get frustrated losing so much.

      Anyway, I played my first round at Cake using this strategy. So far so good - for one game at least and I finished second. I wasn't well versed in playing the late phase so got rattled trying to read my notes on the fly and think I blew some hands that probably would have won it for me.

      I've downloaded the trainers and doing ok with them until lesson 4. There seems to be so many variations and I'm trying to figure out why you push in some cases and not others. Is there a guide with more explanation of "when's and why's"?

      So far this all seems strange to me as I never like pushing so much. Like I said, I don't hit very often when I do. Hopefully it will start to sink in and these charts will help?
    • evertonroar
      evertonroar
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 737
      Originally posted by z4tz

      About raising big ammounts: i found that the fish can call with crap anyway and if you think about it, if he calls with 63o against your AA, at least 4/5 times you will win and gain money. But sometimes he will suck out on you and those hurt, but you just gotta think about the long run all the time (was my play good, not was the result good)
      agreed. I just dont like playing my big hands in multi way pots. getting 3-4 callers agasint your AA and bye bye 4/5 wins.
    • UeYa
      UeYa
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2009 Posts: 96
      Imho there's not strict strategy but there are many related to any hand, any table and any sng.
      In the last 4 days I've had a bad run (I'm probably still in it!) but I go ahead with my stiles, I review my hands and many times I just say "it's a bad run" while reviewing the last game.

      What i strongly suggest everyone is to read Poker Mindset who will help you facing bad beats (they're your best friends!!!) and bad runs.

      See you at the tables
    • HerbGuy
      HerbGuy
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2010 Posts: 12
      Well, so far it's still more of the same other than the fact that I make it to the bubble and get knocked out...which is maybe more frustrating. One had I pushed all in with A10s...other guy calls with K9..nine hits on the river. Next time I go in with A9s, other person has A7..hits 7 on the river.

      Maybe someone is trying to tell me something...
    • vladd20
      vladd20
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2008 Posts: 3,735
      herb stop saying things like "I" dont hit and shit like that you hit just like everybody else if you dont accept the fact that your game has to improve and just blame it on the cards or the site or whatever stupid reason you can think of you ll never be a winning player....nonetheless this strategy is good and it will work if you apply it corectlly ....are you sure you are doing that ? wtf the hands you are talking about the first hand you are 60 40 favourite that means in 10 times HE WILL WIN 4 of them so what do you expect? and the second 70 30 that s not even sick....sick are runner runner 2 outer that s sick and that will also happen....
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      I think re-stealing is a big part of why you play just a few hands in the middle phase. And you generally can't play pocket pairs profitably.

      And other speculative hands.

      And if you are in the middle phase there's a big chance others will be too. And some will be in the late phase so they will often push over your raise.

      And a lot of other "and"s. Basically i guess the middle phase has the biggest problems of them all.
    • HerbGuy
      HerbGuy
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2010 Posts: 12
      Originally posted by vladd20
      herb stop saying things like "I" dont hit and shit like that you hit just like everybody else if you dont accept the fact that your game has to improve and just blame it on the cards or the site or whatever stupid reason you can think of you ll never be a winning player....nonetheless this strategy is good and it will work if you apply it corectlly ....are you sure you are doing that ? wtf the hands you are talking about the first hand you are 60 40 favourite that means in 10 times HE WILL WIN 4 of them so what do you expect? and the second 70 30 that s not even sick....sick are runner runner 2 outer that s sick and that will also happen....
      Sorry Vladd20, didn't mean to offend you in anyway and if you read the thread..I am not criticising the system. I was merely highlighting something I've seen many, many times in two years of playing. I don't want it to happen anymore which is why I'm asking for advice to improve my game. This system is not easy to follow for me so I am trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong...but maybe I'll just work it out myself
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I think what Vlad was trying to say, and maybe came across a bit brutal, is:

      Getting in as 60:40 and 70:30 favourite is a guarantee of losing 40% and 30% respectively of the time.

      And you can lose 4 or more of those situations in a row. It is never nice. It always feels like shit. You should read the sng blogs of Nick Parkes, lennonac, lessthanthree, Atoks. Playing sngs can result in downswings of 30+BIs. Normal occurrence.

      Late phase SNG play is the most difficult but most crucial part to master. Tune in to Chenny doing basic SNG coaching on Sundays. Watch him play the push/fold game with hands you wouldn't believe are correct, but actually are essential.

      ICM Trainer is a must. Being able to make the correct moves 95%+ is necessary. Understanding why isn't. Knowing why a match strikes flame doesn't make it burn. You may feel better knowing it, but it will work even if you don't think about it.

      If you need to know about the math, look up Independent Chip Model on google, and get stuck in.

      Take heart. Poker is a grind, unfortunately, but should be enjoyable. Have the bankroll to sustain you, refine your play so you make the correct moves, and enjoy.
    • DonCareless
      DonCareless
      Basic
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 9
      im tryin to win 4 x 12 seat SnG in a row so i get 2k

      so far i won 3 in a row 8 times.. dont be upset ur playin wrong..
      i make dollors just chasin the bonus
    • vladd20
      vladd20
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2008 Posts: 3,735
      yeah i m not offended by your post i just came hard on you because i want you to understand YOU are the only one who can work on your game and you should try to improve it rather than whine in the forums.....so let s say everytime you want to whine you read a strategy article and post a hand ....that way you ll improve your game even more... Good luck at the tables