[NL2-NL10] NL200 FR: After triple-up, trips of king flop.

    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
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      HAND #1
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      Party Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
      Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

      MRBIG5670: $66 (33 bb)
      Zen888: $38 (19 bb)
      mycustomers: $340.55 (170.3 bb)
      Zyrano86: $80 (40 bb)
      arebew: $200 (100 bb)
      tigerKTG: $119.90 (60 bb)
      Kingcovey: $200 (100 bb)
      Speedster81: $202.20 (101.1 bb)

      Pre-Flop: tigerKTG is MP2 with
      2 folds, tigerKTG raises to $5, 4 folds, mycustomers calls $3

      Flop: ($11) (2 players)
      mycustomers bets $2, tigerKTG raises to $10, mycustomers calls $8

      Turn: ($31) (2 players)
      mycustomers bets $22, tigerKTG calls $22

      River: ($75) (2 players)
      mycustomers bets $83, tigerKTG folds

      Results: $75 pot ($3 rake)

      stats of "mycustomers": 46/14 AF:2 on 56hands

      Here I have a strong read he turned his flush (betting pattern). Vilain looks fishy. That's the first hand I play against him postflop.

      Good fold river?


      NB: Should I post this in the BS strategy rather than here ?
  • 10 replies
    • fun101rockets
      fun101rockets
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,162
      why r u playin with 60bb?
    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
      After triple-up, cf title.
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Hey tigerK,

      villain looks rather fishy and against this player I would be inclined to shove turn against his donkbet for value and protection from 4th :club: . I believe he could overplay TT+(88+) this way and some dominated Kx as well.

      As played, I think it's close river, but I would lean towards call here due presumption he's a bad player according to his stats over 56 hands and that he has looser range than made flushes.

      However, I do lack BSS skills thus I'm leaving this open for Gerv and ysessa and it would certainly be a good idea to post this in BSS forum as well.

      Regards,
      burek2000
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      How about topping up to 100bb and go the setmine route?

      I don't like your preflop raising size at all. Your stack-to-pot ratio is 5 which sucks as a relative shortstack, you want it to make it 4 or 3 to be committed easier.

      Raising 3.5-4bb with a tripled stack is much much better. More value preflop, more value postflop and easier decisions.

      Raise big time flop if you know he is flushing on his draw so potsized of $18 at least. You can even go to $25 and overbet shove the Turn on a blank.

      Now you see the problem of raising small pre with 60bb, you still play the Turn/River whereas you want to play Flop/Turn with a 60bb most of the time.

      Call Turn, fold river is fine but I'd estimate his hand range on the flop already. If you would had TP, folding TUrn was my preference.

      [edit] AF stat sucks with 56 hands, use AFq ;)

      - Gerv
    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
      Sorry for my english.

      Originally posted by Gerv
      How about topping up to 100bb and go the setmine route?
      I ask you this question back: do you top up after triple-up or do you just wait your turn to run?


      I don't like your preflop raising size at all. Your stack-to-pot ratio is 5 which sucks as a relative shortstack, you want it to make it 4 or 3 to be committed easier.Raising 3.5-4bb with a tripled stack is much much better. More value preflop, more value postflop and easier decisions.
      Here is a big point we disagree on. I assume you think playing 60bb deep is more about playing SSS, whereas it's more about playing BS strategy according to me. I mean playing 60bb with the SS strategy is just a nonsense to me, and far from being ev+max (probably ev- though). To your point it looks like having easier decision and being committed asap are the keys. Ok with 20bb, not with 60bb. Even so I do agree that my pf bet is ledge, 3-3.5bb would have been better. Just a reflex of my standart bet of 2.5bb with 20bb (my standart bet is 2.5-3bb usually)


      Raise big time flop if you know he is flushing on his draw so potsized of $18 at least. You can even go to $25 and overbet shove the Turn on a blank.
      That's how to play face up I guess. Overbet 25$ are you kiddin me? Or how protection kill value lol. Have you ever seen a reg doing an overbet of twice the pot flop in CG FR? To get value you have to accept the risk. 15-18$ overbet is more understandable, but even so I refuse myself to play like that, face up. And maybe I'm wrong but just after making a 25$ overbet flop, if he calls and a club comes, find a fold is much much harder... The problem with playing face up is that you can be bluffed much more easily... And here with a 25$ overbet flop, knowing that and considerating his range of calling that overbet, it looks like you're almost commited mate.

      Now you see the problem of raising small pre with 60bb, you still play the Turn/River whereas you want to play Flop/Turn with a 60bb most of the time.
      No. Play postflop is nice too you know. Even if 60bb is not the perfect stack size to play it I admit.

      Call Turn, fold river is fine
      Ok.

      but I'd estimate his hand range on the flop already.
      I did, puting him on a flush. That's why I made a quite strong 3bet (but still decent). Overbet is not part of my flop game as I said (and I assume it), I could have raise the pot instead (13$) that's true, but not more. At the turn I just pay for chasing the fullhouse, I had the odds for it.

      If you would had TP, folding TUrn was my preference.
      At least we agree on that.


      Sorry if it looked rude, but my lack of english vocabulary doesn't help me to make it softer.
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Hi tigerK

      I dont think you look rude the point is you ask for your hand to be evaluated and I think Gerv did a very thorough job of it. I completely agree with Gerv in the fact that you had a vry good hand you knew that you more than likely had your oponet beat. the last thing you want is to give your oponent is to give him attractive pot odds and you did. You play your trips of K very carefully because you're are worried about losing your stack. In this case your should not have entered the flop and folded pre.

      I think if you come to ask for a hand to be evaluated is because you are wondering if you played it right. a coach is not flaming you by pointing out what you did wrong. It is just to think about what you should look forward on changing in future hands.

      Whether you win or lose that hand at showdown should not matter really what should is that you made the right decision at that a particular betting point.

      Finally every one has leak and recognising them is the first step in improving your game.

      To summarise the way I think you should have played it:


      preflop: if confident bet normally pot size but with 60BB as a short stack played I would definitely fold from MP2

      on the flop: if confident do a minimum of a pot size bet cos of the FD, if not I would shove and take the pot right there if he calls then fair enough I know that he chases his draw and that there is a lot more money to be made from him in the long run.

      on the turn: again no scare card, but I would shove there and try to take the pot again.

      I would not have come to having the tough decision on the river. I maybe would have lost more money than you did on that hand but it does not make it the wrong decision (I think :f_biggrin: ) . But It is also very likely that I would have won the pot by making the opponent fold
    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
      Originally posted by Bierbaer
      Yeah i like it, too.

      I'd play the same way 100BB deep.
      You have the required ~2:1 implieds (imo) and the opponent could still be spaazing out on the turn in which case you sometimes even win unimproved on the river.

      Once he shoves it in on the river you have an easy fold.

      Edit:Btw i think the raisesize on the flop is ok. You could make it bigger but you don't want to scare him off if he has some kind of small pocket pair and even if he calls with a flushdraw that's good because you always have 10 redraw-outs against the flush and - most important - you're in position so you can easily play against him.

      Look at how the hand actually went down: He most likely hit his flush and you still had a +EV decision on the turn (probably) and got out of his way very easy on the river.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678

      I ask you this question back: do you top up after triple-up or do you just wait your turn to run?
      I always did this whether I wanted to play or not. You could even grab the BSS SHC and play those kind of cards

      The preflop raising size is a BSS concept I mentioned. It is the Stack-to-pot-ratio and the occurring numbers gives you an indication how fast you can commit yourself.

      I think you also agree that you want to get as much value as you can on every street :)



      That's how to play face up I guess.
      Hmm don't know but mindonks I always raise regardless which NLHE strategy I play. an $18 raise is just potsized giving him 2:1, you can raise that small to $8 but you will be playing A Turn and a River and I prefer to fastplay this.

      And how can you play face up if you 1) Are not used to play 60bb thus metagame doesn't really know what your standard ranges are like and 2) This Villain is a level one thinker with some fishy level 2 moves.


      Ok so since you are French, you can from now on ask questions or argue with me in French since I can read that and with a little help of Google Translate :)

      Pouvez-vous la prochaine fois mettre un peu plus que juste une citation, parce que maintenant je ne sais pas quoi faire avec la citation que vous venez a donné. Je veux dire handjudges ont des vues différentes sur la façon de jouer une main:) Mais je l'ai déjà dit à vous que le tour / play River comme la façon dont vous l'a présenté à moi, c'était bien.

      But I stay with raise$15 flop, bet 2/3 Turn and fold when getting c/R if a 3rd comes
      Then on the river you can decide whether to stick the rest in or not
    • tigerK
      tigerK
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.10.2008 Posts: 4,566
      I'll think about topping up and play 100bb deep until the end of the turn. This could be an ev+ idea, at least if I'm not playing too badly BS (not used to play this strategy tbh)

      My quote of Bierbaer was more to reply to thazar than anything else.
      I thought thazar (thanks for replying) was pinpointing the fact that I should not try to argue with a coach even if I disagree. It was just to legitimate my thoughts. I mean we agree on the river fold, that's the main thing I guess, but when you talked about overbetting the flop to 18-25$ I just thought to myself that it was far from being the right move, the ev+max move.

      When I spoke about playing face up, maybe I'm wrong but with such an overbet you're clearly representing a strong hand which doesn't want to see another club. That's why it looks face up to me. Regardless to opponents.

      If I had to play this hand again, I would raise more preflop, 3-3.5bb and 3bet pot flop so thanks for your advices.

      Et si tu veux parler en français, n'hésites pas à passer dans la communauté française ;) , ils ont besoin de bons analystes de mains (= handjudges) comme toi car le niveau en SPT (= SSS) y est très bas. De plus ton niveau en français semble clairement suffisant pour discuter.

      Thanks for replying too and good luck on the tables.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by tigerK
      My quote of Bierbaer was more to reply to thazar than anything else.
      I thought thazar (thanks for replying) was pinpointing the fact that I should not try to argue with a coach even if I disagree. It was just to legitimate my thoughts.
      Ok to make one point clear:

      This board is meant to discuss hands so disagreeing with each other is good because we can both bring in our arguments and so we can see each other's perspective

      I tend to disagree a lot when playing a hand or at least I ask questions to fully understand their point so I can ask for example ''Ok so you mean this, why isn't playing it like this the best line?''


      Good luck on the tables :) !