[NL2-NL10] Quiz: KK preflop

  • Poll
    • Which answer is correct?

      • 10
        Raise to ~$26
        48%
      • 7
        Raise all-in
        33%
      • 2
        Call
        10%
      • 1
        Raise to ~$35
        5%
      • 1
        Raise to ~$14
        5%
      Total: 21 Votes
  • 14 replies
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Fullstack right?

      I say raise to ~26$ without having really a clue about it but I can't resist a poll. :D
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hm....an opinion of a fixed limit fish :P Interesting. Why do you think that $26 is the right amount? Why not call or raise all-in?

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      I never call KK preflop. ^^

      And I reraise around 3 times the raise ahead of me = 21 ~ 26.

      I don't want him to fold a weaker hand so I don't raise allin. But maybe he thinks that my allin is to push him off the best hand and he makes a weak call anyway... :)
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Other thoughts? :)
    • c4t0r
      c4t0r
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.07.2007 Posts: 60
      I would put him on the handrange AQ+, QQ+ so i'd go all-in directly.

      EDIT: QQ+ instead of KK+ actually
    • MMa7
      MMa7
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.02.2007 Posts: 75
      I'd actually raise to 23. We have the second best hand here, with no reads or stats I'm calling his shove. If he has AA, so be it.
    • undercover82
      undercover82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.12.2006 Posts: 813
      Wtf why is there no option for fold :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

      This looks like a restealing in position situation.
      Flat call sucks because it might win an extra contibet but on the other hand he can suck out cheaply.
      Minraises look very fishy and they dont protect the hand much either.
      35$ leaves not much of the stack behind so doesnt make much sense since its easy all in on any flop.
      I would ponder between 26$ and direct all-in. But if he calls the reraise to 26 and an ace falls , its a difficult decision because he might be holding AK/AQ , yet we cant fold coz of the good pot odds. Also if he has called with something like QQ/JJ he should fold to our all in on flop since he prolly realizes he doesnt beat anything anymore.
      I think anyway if we raise to 26$ most people will either fold or reraise all in because if they only call after the flop its a 25% win = profitable situation so they are commited anyway.
      Finally a direct all-in might cause a worse hand to call because it mostly smells like a not-made hand such as AK , while small inviting re-raises usually speak for a monster.

      I'd fold.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      The reraise looks like a simple value play here, so I'll only consider strong hands (opponent dependent, this isn't promising if his range is QQ+,AK but it's a good situation if it's 99+,AQ+, which is quite plausible as we're raising a wide variety of hands from the cutoff position). Against AA we're going broke regardless so the question is how to maximise value against weaker hands. Putting in another raise gives any thinking opponent (which I would not assume my opponent is not at NL50) an easy fold if we're beating him and the pot is nicely sized to trap him with a weaker overpair. If we think the only ace he reraises is AK, then it might even be right to raise a sizeable continuation bet (provided that he'll cbet his pairs on an ace high board) on an ace high board (with no king) because of the reduced likelihood of him holding an ace (the pot would be $15 on the flop, he'll probably cbet in the range $7-$15 and we have $43 left which we would be betting to win the pot on the flop and the continuation bet; maybe he even calls with QQ). If he doesn't cbet such boards often enough without hitting we will have to give up on an ace high flop but the value we get from smaller pairs is the thing (getting value from small pairs almost seems to be what SH NL is about, people try to take them to showdown so often). Regardless the flop play is check/raise or check/fold.

      Against an unknown, I say call here as I don't think you're getting a call from him preflop with anything other than a min reraise, which... well, frankly I don't feel comfortable doing against an opponent who might interpret it differently than we think he does. The key is the reraise has made the pot too large for the button to get away from his hand after a continuation bet.

      Disclaimer: I might not do the same thing at the table, it's easy to reach a considered (correctly or otherwise) opinion away from the table and quite different when actually facing the reraise.
    • Werdna
      Werdna
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2007 Posts: 67
      Wouldn't a valid question be what we think the other guy guesses we have?

      if $2 is a standard raise he probably wouldn't put us on KK...instead Ak/AQ or a lower pair.

      I'd say by the simple fact that KK is the strongest hand and regardless of what BU has bet we have the second best hand possible, I'd raise $26.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Tadaaaaa!

      And the winner is.....

      We raise to ~$26! :)

      We do this because we have the second nuts and want to get value from worse hands (and there are a lot). Since pairs are very vulnerable hands in NL we raise also for protection here. As you already mentioned: We don't want to see an ace on the flop or play on a draw heavy board because it can cost us a lot of money. A minraise and a call are no options because we would give our opponents good odds for their drawing hands. An all-in would only be called by aces. All worse hands would fold. That's why a raise to ~$26 is a good tradeoff between getting value and protecting the hand.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      Like hell you're getting calls from hands which wouldn't call an all in if you raise to $26 from anyone other than complete fish. With a half pot bet left to go that's a commitment decision.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Haha I should start playing NL ... I think I will rock you all. :D
    • undercover82
      undercover82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.12.2006 Posts: 813
      Suppose that we raise to 26 and flop comes A75 or something similar. We have to act first. What do we do ? If we go all in will a non-ace hand call us ?
      If we check and he bets , can we hope that he bluffed into us with a hand like QQ and call ?
    • Zeffke
      Zeffke
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.04.2007 Posts: 1,123
      With the raise to 26, I think you are committed to it, even if there's an ace on the flop. Isn't it?