Live Poker Etiquette and Ruling

    • monstersnatch
      monstersnatch
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 7
      Hello PS Forum,

      last night I was sitting at a live 8 handed STT when something very disturbing happened: In a 3-way pot with position on the other guys, I move in on the turn since my opponents were showing weakness and I had a strong image at the table, showing only premium hands at showdown. Both of them were considering folding as the best option, point at which player4, who was outside the hand, peeked at the cards of one of them and encourages him to call me. Sadly I did not pick up any of the discussion since I got distracted by some other guy, at least not until player4 blatantly announced "the deal" they made - my opponent would call me and if he wins, player4 receives 50% of the winnings.
      I was shocked! My tournament life was at risk because of some half-baked player outside the hand!

      My question is what ruling a floor manager would deliver, assuming this would have occured at a sanctioned tournament.
      Let`s discuss!
      :spade:
  • 6 replies
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      It will vary from one establishment to the next, but in the casino I play at, your cards are dead if you show them to another player. Talking about your hand with someone outside the hand will kill your hand pretty much everywhere, so yeah, no way your opponent can continue in that hand.

      If this ever happens to you in a casino, be sure to report it *immediately*, before anything else happens (stop the dealer if necessary). I had an unfortunate experience like this once playing live NL1000, where my opponent asked advice to his buddy behind the rail (who may even have seen my hand). Rather than protesting right then and there, I went to the floor manager, who told me they couldn't do anything about it since the hand was over (despite security cameras etc), so I lost ~500$. I learnt my lesson well ^^ (and said opponent is now on my "slowroll whenever possible" list)
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Hey monstersnatch,

      Sorry for your misfortune. These situations are never easy to handle on the players behalf or for the tournament director/floor manager.

      I was sitting at a live 8 handed STT

      "the deal" they made - my opponent would call me and if he wins, player4 receives 50% of the winnings.

      As far as I'm concerned if you are playing a STT/MTT/SNG or any tournament based structure, no-one can split the winnings of a hand. (even if they have made a "deal")
      This is not only morally wrong but against tournament rules.
      Even if it was a CG (cash game), this again is morally wrong and there should only be 1 player per hand for a decision to be made and anyone trying to break these rules should be punished.

      In most situations showing your cards to another player outside of the hand, the dealer/tournament director whatever, will usually let it slip as long as the person seeing the players cards does not give any hints or tells of what to do.
      But, in a Teams event sometimes you have 2-3 "ask a friend", but obviously in this case, this isn't the matter.

      In conclusion if I was you, I would immediately tell the dealer or like "swiss" said,
      report it *immediately*, before anything else happens (stop the dealer if necessary)
      .
      And as for being a floor manager/dealer/tournament director, my ruling would be:
      Player with the cards -
      1. I would give him a warning.
      2. Make his hand dead for even trying to get help from an outside player.
      3. If he does it again or even hints at trying something similar, disqualify him from the tournament or if it was a CG tell him to leave the table and make the floor managers aware of this player for collusion and cheating.

      Player 4 (without the cards) -
      Pretty much the same deal but, obviously can't muck his cards.

      Regards,

      Kyle.
    • EagleStar88
      EagleStar88
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2008 Posts: 7,359
      I knew Kyle's day job would come in handy one day :D

      In case anyone didn't know, Kyle is a poker tournament director in Australia ;)


      Bart
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Booyahhhhhh

      :s_cool:
    • monstersnatch
      monstersnatch
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 7
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      Sorry for your misfortune. These situations are never easy to handle on the players behalf or for the tournament director/floor manager.
      Thanks for your advice. Like I said before, I was shocked and couldn`t believe my eyes the moment it was happening. It took me some time to digest it..
      Anyhow, given there was no floor manager / tournament director around to arbitrate (it was a home game) what action was I supposed to take - according to Poker Etiquette ?
      Of course, there was money involved and something had to be done, but I could not figure out what, so I simply pointed out this was not ok, but got instantly overruled by the 2 players who had their "deal" already running and the cards were turning as we argued about..

      What would You have done ?
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Ok well the whole situation now has changed if it was a home game.
      Now it gets personal and down-right disrespectful.

      At a Home Game all players should talk about rulings/etiquette well before any cards are dealt and any money is handled. If you have people who are prone to changing rules/bending rules or whatever, write up a list of rules that you think could be a problem and have them handy. Maybe even get everyone to sign these rules like an agreement. It sounds a bit to professional and what have you, but if you have people that you don't trust/prone to arguments/cheating things can get ugly through-out the game.
      In the end, home games should be fun and more of a social event with friends.

      What would You have done ?


      Personally: I would of gotten a bit angry. Like I said, It gets a bit more personal and disrespectful and if they continued to work against me I wouldn't play with them any more. Nothing more you can do really.

      Unless you go kung-fu on them, hehehe. Just kidding.