[NL2-NL10] Instructional sample hands #3

  • Poll
    • What is the correct move here?

      • 30
        standard continuation bet
        75%
      • 5
        check/call
        13%
      • 2
        bet $0.15
        5%
      • 2
        check/raise
        5%
      • 1
        bet $0.4
        3%
      • 0
        fold
        0%
      Total: 40 Votes
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Strong hands on the flop

      This week’s instructional sample hand deals with a topic which seems to be quite easy at first sight: We hit a really strong hand on the flop and are sure that we have the best hand. Nevertheless there are some sample hands where the players make big mistakes. For this reason I prepared a quiz for you. Please let us know how you would play in that particular situation and why.

      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $5,75
      MP3:
      $6,79

      0,02/0,04 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A:heart: , Q:heart:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0,16, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0,16, 4 folds.

      Flop: ($0,38) J:heart: , K:diamond: , T:heart: (2 players)
      Hero ???
  • 17 replies
    • undercover82
      undercover82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.12.2006 Posts: 813
      yeeey fold is an option finally :D
      I voted for standard contibet which conceals the hand , betting too big doesnt make much sense , there is no need to protect and he will fold most of the time , betting too small wont help in creating a big pot. I dont like checking either coz he might check behind.
      So i would make a standard bet on flop and then depending on his aggression play checkraise or keep betting on the turn.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      The fold option is just for you :D

      Other thoughts?
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      My standard conti-bet here is simply a PSB. We could quite possibly get raised here. . If this flop hasn't hit villain then we are not going to get action anyway. Slowplaying allows for a possible 3flush or 4 to a str8 to dampen our action.

      If called I'd lead again.

      If raised I'd 3bet versus a passive /not too aggressive villain.

      If raised by very aggressive villain I MIGHT flat call and go for a turn c/r since the freecard risk is small enough considering that villain is very unlikely to allow a free-card if he had a set.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      This flop is great news for us in more than just the two obvious ways (nuts and redraw to the nuts, one out to the royal even): it's likely that our opponent flopped a made hand one pair or better or a draw. We're not getting any money out of the underpairs and connected/suited hands that didn't hit but many hands will be willing to play with us. Any move that makes our opponent suspicious is to be avoided (a check/raise works rarely against a NL5 unknown anyway, they're mostly a passive bunch) so bet all three streets as you might with other hands, if our opponent missed the flop or a card kills the action there's not much to do about it. Our only fear other than the unlikely J high straight flush is a full house developing, if the board isn't paired on the river we should have about $4 behind if there have been no raises so far and a shove might be profitable. Get it in on the flop if opponent is willing, of course.
    • FlaviaMomo
      FlaviaMomo
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.01.2007 Posts: 54
      check/call
      we have the nut made hand and the nut fdraw, flop is very scary to bet.
      If villain has top2pair or a set he will bet hard to get allin on the flop anyways.
      If he doesn't have top2/set he's probably not gonna give more than a potsize bet on the river unless hes a big donk.
    • Riverman1984
      Riverman1984
      Basic
      Joined: 18.07.2007 Posts: 36
      Imo a bet would be better than check/call because what if he checks behind and the board pairs on the turn?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Easy standard bet because everything else would look suspicious. ^^
    • Zeffke
      Zeffke
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.04.2007 Posts: 1,123
      Just a normal continuation bet on flop i think is the best. If he raises i just call and bet out again on turn...
    • c4t0r
      c4t0r
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.07.2007 Posts: 60
      I voted for check/raise. The decision does not come easy however: The flop is great news, but its a very scary board. Villain called our PF raise, so chances are that he hit something on that board, in which case i would assume that he will bet into us. I would probably take some time thinking about what to do to give the impression that im scared of that board, and then finally check. If he just opts for another freecard and checks after my check, then thats ok - there is almost no possibility for him to hold a better hand than mine on the turn (except if it brings a straightflush for him which is very very unlikely because of the PF action). I would then do a PSB on the turn to finally get some value (of course i would take a lot of time thinking about it before doing so again ;) )
      EDIT: Even if the board pairs on turn i would PSB - have to find out what im up against, only if it gets reraised i'd start to worry. :EDIT

      Looks like i am the only one that voted for check/raise, so i'm probably wrong (fold must be the right anser then :D )
    • Qastorimon
      Qastorimon
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2007 Posts: 412
      A standard bet is the right option imo. If he has TP or even a set he probably raises us, thinking he has the best hand but wanting to pick up the pot right now. If he has a draw I want him to call and hit his draw of course.
    • LordesQ
      LordesQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2007 Posts: 1,107
      Originally posted by ciRith
      Easy standard bet because everything else would look suspicious. ^^
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      I agree with most in here :)

      My normal line is to continuation bet 90+% of the HU pots and why change it now?

      lets look at the possibilities after a continuation bet (which of course would be more or less a full pot bet on this very connected board):

      a) Villain got trash (folds) - True, we did not get much value from our monster, but would villain give us much action if this board didn't hit him even if we checked to him? My guess would be that he would slow down after we calls (or raises which would only make him fold) his flop bet and check behind on the turn.

      b) The flop hits the villain partly (calls) - With his TP a regular fish will call us down anyday if we normally cont bet alot (we should be able to get AI on the river and hopefully stack him off) :D

      c) The flop hits the villain good (raises) - With his top two pair, set or straight + flush draw he will most likely raise us (both for value [he would think] and to give us bad odds to draw out on him [useless if he knew our hand, but whatever]). This can get interesting, the flop goes:
      Hero bet 0,38$ - MP3 raise to 1,10$ (5,63$ remaining - 4,59$ effective) - Hero?
      call, raise (push that is) or fold :rolleyes: (just to make undercover happy)? - Personally i would raise it anyday to put maximum presure on the villain - he could be on a draw (remember we can still lose if he hits a FH with his set/two pair or we can risk a split if he raised us in the first place with TPTK or something like that).
      The pros on a call on the other hand are that he could have raised us for info to get away from a medicore hand relatively cheap and would fold to an AI. Anyway as i said - AI would be correct in this case - the pot has already grown relatively big and we would like to take it down now and we can't allow him to draw out on us cheaply.

      d) The flop hits gives the villain a straight too (raises) - He could sit there with AQ too, and the money would most likyly come to the middle on the flop - that is if we chose to reraise the villain AI in the scenario i made in c) - In this rare case it is of course best to get all the money in as early as possible, since we are ahead (split on the flop, but we got the prescious flush draw too). If we don't get the money in and another or a card that pairs the board falls on the turn, it could possibly kill the action and money would be lost.

      To sum up: Bet this flop as you would bet it with any other hand - Everytime! Your hand is very strong, but not unbreakable - Do not slowplay it!

      I think that enough for now :)

      Comments are very welcome, I'm here to learn as wee (I'm very new to NL, and have just returned to playing poker after exams, summer holiday and then moving into a new appartment - but you will be seing alot more of me from now on again)

      Best regards,
      Mugge

      Btw, where is Stefan?
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi @ all!

      Thanks for the analysis and the votes. ~80% of you voted for the continuation bet - which is correct. Mugge88 wrote a nice analysis as well as some other members. Btw. Mugge: Welcome back! :)
      We have a so called "action flop" here. Either our opponent hit something or he missed the flop completely. I would make a standard continuation bet here ($0.25-$0.30) and hope for a raise.

      Because the discussion was really useful I opened a new thread:

      Instructional sample hands #3 - part 2.

      Have fun! :)

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      You said that your standard cont bet would be $0.25-$0.30 on that board. In my eyes this is a little low (pot size = 0,38$) on such a connected board. I know it might seem like a small thing but let's look at the difference between 0,25$ and 0,35$ on the flop: 0,20$ bigger pot on the turn (bet 0,18$-0,20$ there) = 0,60$ bigger pot on the river making it alot easier to get him AI.

      To sum up: my standard cont bet on that board is a little higher than what you suggest, am I completely wrong or...? (in my eyes boards don't get much more connected than it is here)

      Best regards,
      Mugge
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      You are right about your goal to get him all-in on the river. But a normal continuation bet is 1/2-2/3 pot size bet. You don't want to scare your opponent away with a pot size bet. If you make a potsize bet you show more strength than normal which is counterproductive.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Hmm.. This is where we have different views on things - I look at continuation bets as being ½ pot to full pot depending on the board, since that's what I've been reading earlier. Perhabs I shouldn't go as high on a very connected board, but not that it matters much: The chance to see a board which is connected enough for me to bet full pot doesn't come that often :)
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      Full pot continuation bet is usually only right against multiple opponents, to avoid giving odds for an overcall.

      Or against a complete calling station of course, but that's not a continuation bet, it's a value bet.