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[NL2-NL10] NL 25 SSS valuebets river on dangerous boards

    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      1)
      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)     
      Position:
      Stack
      BB:
      $5,29
      CO:
      $5,34
      MP3:
      $26,37
      Hero:
      $4,50

      0,10/0,25 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.8 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with T:club: , Q:spade:
      4 folds, MP3 calls $0,25, CO calls $0,25, BU folds, Hero calls $0,15, BB checks.

      Flop: ($1,00) Q:diamond: , K:club: , J:heart: (4 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

      Turn: ($1,00) 9:diamond: (4 players)
      Hero bets $1, 2 folds, CO calls $1,00.

      River: ($3,00) Q:club: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO checks.

      Final Pot: $3,00

      I afraid something:D Actually it´s quite clear value bet, because I have one queen and itś very unlikely, that CO called with QK, QJ, Q9 and also KK, JJ and 99 doesn´t seem likely (whell maybe 99). So how much should I value bet and after his re-raise is it easy all-in?

      2)
      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)       
      Position:
      Stack
      CO:
      $29,86
      Hero:
      $5,35
      MP3:
      $7,94

      0,10/0,25 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.8 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with 5:diamond: , 4:spade:
      5 folds, MP3 calls $0,25, CO calls $0,25, 2 folds, Hero checks.

      Flop: ($0,85) 6:heart: , 7:club: , K:diamond: (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets $0,44, Hero calls $0,44, MP3 calls $0,44.

      Turn: ($2,17) 4:diamond: (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

      River: ($2,17) 8:diamond: (3 players)
      Hero bets $1, MP3 raises to $7,25 (All-In), 2 folds.

      Final Pot: $10,42

      I didn´t notice three diamonds, but if there wasn´flush probabilities, should I still call his all-in bet. There is still a chanse, that we split with 5 (although he could also have 9T)
  • 6 replies
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      Hi Kaitz, I often look at your posts and think that maybe you miss some value on your better hands. When you have a strong hand with a short-stack I feel that it is often correct to not to be too afraid but to push hard.
      Reverse implied odds don't haunt short-stackers too much at all. Of course RIO do not enter into river decisions .

      1)PF: I fold here since OOP versus 3 opponents QT isn't too good IMO. I play tight (possibly too tight) out of the SB. Maybe this is a leak of my own.

      Flop:Betting into this board with a reasonable sized bet can often lead to you being raised off your hand. I think checking is OK here. OOP draws/weak made hands are best played slow against 3 opponents IMO.

      Turn: Fine as I would be looking to get my stack in.

      River:If I felt that CO was a bad player then I would open push otherwise I'd bet $2.50 and call any raise. Villain could call with plenty of two-pair hands or Q-x or call with less to keep you honest. FH's are less likely but even if I lost the hand or folded CO out I'd still be confident that I made the right play.

      2)I feel that your hand is under-represented here meaning that villain could be thinking that you are trying a cheap steal . I'd call this (but I am a calling station). There was also only one :diamond: on the flop which lessens the chance that villain has a flush here. I doubt that you miss too much by folding though if MP3 is decent.

      BTW, how do you feel that playing SSS at NL25 is compared to NL10? At NL25 I see loads of Short-stacks, not too many loose players and big waiting lists.
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      Hand 1.)
      After telling you that this is a FOLD Preflop I could be done with that hand, but I will evaluate the rest of your hand as well, since I´m a nice guy. :D

      On the river you can Valuebet here easily, only AT or QJ should beat you here (all other hands should have been raised preflop), so bet around $1.25 to give him a chance to call his King or so.
      And a re-raise would be an All-In for me as well.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Thanks for commets.

      QT, QJ, KJ, KT, AT should be good enough to complete pre-flop. If I don´t overplay them (That means pushing all-in with top pair, then I have very good chance to win the pot. I just have way too good pot odds and I think that I loose value if I don´t enter the pot.

      Ofcourse you should know postflop game and maybe have some kind of read your opponents but NL 25 is place where I try to become better postflop player.

      @Nunki
      NL 10 seemed easy:D , players were looser. NL 25 there are a lot SSS players, some play according to the chart, some steals and some re-steals (not to quality hands though:) - for them it is easy all-in Ax or sometimes just any two, because they have seen me stealing before. So to me then it is sometimes easy call 99+, AJ+ I think that already NL 25 it is very important to know your opponents and play accordingly: if tight player (who isn´t SSS) raises UTG and there isn´t callers, then to me it is fold AK, JJ, TT- because I consider his hand range JJ+, AK and I´m behind. But if loose SSS players raise from BU to get my and other SSS players chips, then it is all-in with AJ+, 99+

      And the waiting lists: I play mostly at ten tables, so I sometimes open -12 tables, where I´am on the waiting list. Then I could easily play 8-9 tables and be on the waiting list on 4. Waiting lists consists mostly others SSS players, who can´t bother waiting any more, than 5 minutes, so even if there are 5-6 players on the list, after 10 minutes you should get into game, if someone decides to go out. PokerStars is good rule, you can´t re-enter table less money, that you left half an hour ago. That´s very good (not so good SSS players:) ) for big stacks and also because there isn´t big waiting lists. Hopefully Partypoker also makes some kind of rule someday, now it is just too weird to go back the same table on 3-rd time and take the other players again their money away :rolleyes:
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      Thanks for commets.

      QT, QJ, KJ, KT, AT should be good enough to complete pre-flop. If I don´t overplay them (That means pushing all-in with top pair, then I have very good chance to win the pot. I just have way too good pot odds and I think that I loose value if I don´t enter the pot.
      I disagree, especially on these limits you play. I bet if I would private coach you and watch your game, I would find enough other leaks you should fix first before starting limping in with that hands in late position. ;)
      Right now I would advise you not to limp in with these hands.
    • MMa7
      MMa7
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.02.2007 Posts: 75
      He just completed from the sb after two players limped, aren't the odds here just too good?
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      Not if you ask me. He only has a strong hand if he hits here, is Two Pair, Trips or a Straight, because even a Ten or a Queens often doesn´t gives him a strong enough hand to lead out of position against 3 opponents here.

      Often enough he will miss anything or his hand is to weak to lead (and often he has to fold after a bet and a call on the flop) to complete here. Don´t forget you are a Small Stack and not a Big Stack.

      But in the end it´s your own decision how you like to play. My advise is not to play that marginal hands on that limits. When you start playing SSS on NL $200 and up, you might be ready to play hands like that (but even then I would only play hands like QT from the SB if they are suited).