KK preflop all-in

    • dfedr
      dfedr
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      Joined: 08.02.2008 Posts: 77
      Maybe beginner's question a bit, but is KK all-in preflop really profitable against standard TAG player? My memory says 95% of time he had AA. Thanks a lot in advance
  • 28 replies
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
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      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      memory only remembers bad times, how many times have you heard someone say "omg I always run so bad" ?
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
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      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      Omg I always run so bad :f_cry:
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
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      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Originally posted by dfedr
      Maybe beginner's question a bit, but is KK all-in preflop really profitable against standard TAG player? My selective memory says 95% of time he had AA. Thanks a lot in advance
      FYP and yes, it is profitable.
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
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      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      these days people ant shoving there QQ/JJs so if UTG opens, I reraises, he reraises, i fold KK.

      note though this is only if its an extremely tight player and he opens from UTG1 or 2.
    • Effanongen
      Effanongen
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      Joined: 09.02.2010 Posts: 45
      If any one player knew that you folded Kings like this they would make a correct play to reraise you every single time as he knows you will only continue with aces. I usually just ship it in 100 deep and hope that I'm good, if not atleast I know I can't get raised off my hands. I've gotten Kings all in preflop against a ton of weaker hands such as AK and QQ many times lately, even though yes about a month ago they had aces every single time. It all depends on the players really.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
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      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 939
      Originally posted by Effanongen
      If any one player knew that you folded Kings like this they would make a correct play to reraise you every single time as he knows you will only continue with aces.
      Obviously but you hardly get delt kings/lower prems during a sesh.

      I think folding vs a super tight (15<vipip) is fine play.
    • nitaidean
      nitaidean
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      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 60
      There are some plays that a tight reg (especially raising from UTG) will only make with KK or AA, and since YOU have KK, there is one more KK combo out there, and 6 AA combos. So its 6/7 that its AA, and 1/7 that he has the remaining KK and you're going to split.

      Oh, and theres also the chance he's going nuts with JJ, QQ, or AK, but if you have a decent amount of hands on him and see hes a solid regular nit, you might be able to get away from KK after getting 4bet.
    • Dzy
      Dzy
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      Joined: 01.09.2008 Posts: 217
      Originally posted by nitaidean
      There are some plays that a tight reg (especially raising from UTG) will only make with KK or AA, and since YOU have KK, there is one more KK combo out there, and 6 AA combos. So its 6/7 that its AA, and 1/7 that he has the remaining KK and you're going to split.

      Oh, and theres also the chance he's going nuts with JJ, QQ, or AK, but if you have a decent amount of hands on him and see hes a solid regular nit, you might be able to get away from KK after getting 4bet.
      There are actually 12 combos of AA, so that would be 12 out of 13 times.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I've been thinking this for a long time.

      This month my HEM says that in the 13 times i've got it all in with KK preflop, i've lost $70, i've won 2 full stacks and 2 small stacks, and lost 4 full stacks along with a few smaller stacks. If memory serves me correctly there was only one suckout, and that was for a mid-stack who tilt-shoved with A6, my AI-EV says I should be $40 down.
      So yes, the majority of the time we've both got it in i've lost to AA.

      Since I started playing it's happened 38 times and i'm completely break even, although EV says I should be down $35.

      So tbh it would seem going all in, or at least calling an all in with KK is unprofitable :/
    • prevolsek
      prevolsek
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      Joined: 18.02.2009 Posts: 282
      If everyone would shove KK, then the amount of the times you win AA against KK is the same as the amount of times you lose with KK against AA. But if anyone calls your KK or AA with something weaker - profit
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      first get a decent sample, you are talking over a very small sample there. second get some read on villains, I'd say without read folding KK against AI over the long run is definitely -ev.
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
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      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      KK is my second most profitable hand in NL10 (first on is AA of course), and it is 3 times more profitable than QQ - my third most profitable hand. And I think that folding KK preflop against one opponent is a huge mistake under any circumstances.
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      KK is my second most profitable hand in NL10 (first on is AA of course), and it is 3 times more profitable than QQ - my third most profitable hand. And I think that folding KK preflop against one opponent is a huge mistake under any circumstances.
      I would not say under any circumstances. You can have reads about villain by bet size etc...

      but generally speaking , yes folding KK preflop is a mistake.
    • JuiceQuadre
      JuiceQuadre
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      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 2,688
      There are players againt which its not a good idea to 3bet/shove KK if they open utg... But its super rare..

      Also 3betting/foldint to 4bet is wasting money.. if you cant 3bet for value then call KK preflop.. =)
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
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      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Originally posted by JuiceQuadre
      There are players againt which its not a good idea to 3bet/shove KK if they open utg... But its super rare..

      Also 3betting/foldint to 4bet is wasting money.. if you cant 3bet for value then call KK preflop.. =)
      Completely agree with that - bluffing preflop with KK is just sick :)
    • Chenghao
      Chenghao
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      Joined: 04.10.2009 Posts: 274
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      these days people ant shoving there QQ/JJs so if UTG opens, I reraises, he reraises, i fold KK.

      note though this is only if its an extremely tight player and he opens from UTG1 or 2.
      if you do that , you probably might be exploited

      if u 3bet to fold kings , won't it better if you flat and take a passive plan instead?
    • Titicamara
      Titicamara
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      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 87
      I lost 3 BI last night going all in preflop with KK. All 3 times, I lost to AA. :(
    • sapheal
      sapheal
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      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,015
      Originally posted by dfedr
      Maybe beginner's question a bit, but is KK all-in preflop really profitable against standard TAG player? My memory says 95% of time he had AA. Thanks a lot in advance
      dfedr ;) ,

      Folding KK preflop is ev- unless you exactly your opponent stacks with AA only. In real life, I'd say its nearly always -ev to fold KK preflop. On higher stakes, you will sometimes have to stack w/{TT,JJ}. KK is second best hand in No Limit Holdem.

      Cheers,
      Michal
    • bmfbpi
      bmfbpi
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      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 590
      It is always +ev to stack off with KK. So many times I saw TAGs stack off with AK and QQ. (i'm still in the micros). The only time I'm folding KK is when a nit opens, I 3bet, and he 4bets me(but doesn't 4bet shove). He is jsut screaming to be called. When a tight guy doesn't 4bet shove(considering 100bb stacks), you can assume he has AA most of the time(in a vacuum). This is from my experience, micro stakes, 6max
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