Multitabling SNG Turbo problems.

    • fluffykiller
      fluffykiller
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      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 45
      Hello everyone,

      I have been around poker and PS.com for a year or so more or less. I count myself as an experienced micro stakes sng'er (lol). I believe I easily beat pokerstars $3 normals and turbos when playing 4-8 tables.

      However, I want to put more volume and multitable the turbos, since I see a lot of people do or atleast try to do that. The last week or two I have tried doing so, I played 15-20 tables, stacked on each other (i'm on a laptop), a session and the outcomes were various, some sessions were break even some were winning some were loosing. There were loses of like -$30 but there were also wins of even +$60, which I believe is super great for $3 turbo. I know I know turbos have huge variance, but still I believe I need to improve my game since so far I am not winning (I think I have played 500+ turbos, don't know if that is enough to reach profit).

      So, maybe there are people who are willing to give me suggestions or help how to improve my game, should i watch some videos, articles, perfect the ICM or just keep on playing and getting experience?. Or should I just drop the multitabling and move on playing 4-6 tables on higher limits?

      Any suggestions, comments are welcome !

      Thanks in advance.
  • 20 replies
    • nibbana
      nibbana
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      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      If your playing turbo's the key skill is ICM. You're thrown into these type of decisions relatively early into the tournament. I would make a rule of practicing ICM decisions using SNG wiz before every session and reviewing ICM decisions from your play at the end of every session.

      A couple of things are bound to happen though, your ROI will go down, your variance will go up so the thing you need to assess to see if it's been worthwhile is your hourly rate. This is hard to evaluate until you've played 1000+ tournaments.

      As a final point I personally think jumping from 4-8 to 15-20 tables is too much of a leap and if you want to get to that kind of volume you'd do better to add a couple of tables at a time to your stack until you are comfortable and turning a profit at that level.
    • fluffykiller
      fluffykiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 45
      Thanks !

      I think I can make the decisions pretty fast to cope with the volume. I try to be very tight in the early phases I usually fold AT AJ UTG sometimes AQ. I fold AK to strange no reason all-ins (dunno if thats good) and usually fold JJ QQ to more than one all in or strange reraises.

      As you mentioned the variance has gone up greatly therefore I guess i need more games to know y hourly rate but i believe so far the ROI is greater in 4-6 tables of normal than multitabling turbos.

      Since I have been trying all kind of things that come to my mind to improve my game and many of those have failed or I have failed to keep them in practice now I want other people advices and will try to follow them!

      I will try playing 10 sessions of 10turbos per session and will see how it goes. Of course ICM training will be a must.
    • nibbana
      nibbana
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      Just noticed this new article... don't know if it's any use to you

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/1638/1
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      your knowledge of ICM and the general quality of your game is gonna be the most important factor in your winrate, so work on that.

      That's all assuming you don't play a too many tables. If you find yourself timing out or rushing decisions too much you should play less tables. I find my quality of decisions to really go down when I'm playing too many tables (for me that's 20+).

      And there's a lot of great software to use for multitabling. Programs like tableninja and Holdem manager might be worth looking into if you're planning to play enough.
    • FTRain
      FTRain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.02.2010 Posts: 33
      I'm kind in the same situation /but with less sngs played/. I started 5 days ago with the 50 $ starting capital in FT. This is a chart i made to follow my actions :D

      Profit Graph

      I'm not sure maybe 150 is just too little number. Will be happy for some advice from you guys.
    • fluffykiller
      fluffykiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 45
      viewerr88

      I had a rough week, couldn't play much online and went out to play live in casino for some nights so could not put much volume. But I plan to play a 100 maybe 200 sngs today and tomorrow since I don't have many plans. I will try to force myself to practice my ICM to improve my middle/late phases.

      I have experienced the same thing when I play 20+ tables, I start to lose attention, don't see the where I can blind steal or where I should fold a pair instead of shoving. But I guess If I practice and increase tables by little that might change.

      What good things can you get from tableninja and holdem manager? I use autohotkey to move the current table to the left or right of the screen from the middle (mouse wheel up/down). Since I stack tables its nice to move a table on an interesting showdown, or group tables on a side with 3 or less people left.

      FTRain

      Hello! Well it seems you are doing pretty well with your starting capital! 150 is definitely not enough and if you play turbos the sample should be even bigger! But from your graph the start looks good. I see you playd in sets of 4 tables and in the end you played few sessions 9-10 tables. The outcome wasn't bad but if you just played 150 sng I would suggest you to play less, if you see you are doing good with 4tables then add 2more and play another 100-150 sngs and see how it goes. If you gradually accumulate profit and feel comfortable add 2 more! Don't jump from 4tables to 12! GL
    • FTRain
      FTRain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.02.2010 Posts: 33
      Thanks fluffykiller. Yes i start from the beginning with 4 /have some expirience from before/. After that i tried 1 day 9 tables at a time /3x3 on the screen/. And played like that 3 days. Seems i can manage them but thats my limit for now :) . Right now i have 60 $. I don't think to increase the tables but probably try to keep it with 9 /before some time i played 8 on pokerstars/. Thanks again for the advice, i also advice players to increase slowly because its easy to lose control on many tables.


      Little update after 50 more on 9 tables ->
      http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7540/53195855.jpg
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by fluffykiller
      I try to be very tight in the early phases I usually fold AT AJ UTG sometimes AQ.
      [ ] read the strategy articles
      [ ] understands the meaning of tight
      [ ] understands the early game
      [X] made me LOL
    • fluffykiller
      fluffykiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 45
      FTRain nice progress!

      tokyoaces well maybe it is funny or maybe I just made it sound funny. Would you mind commenting more ?
      Even the chart in the articles clearly states early game that you should fold AJ AQ KQ in the early position.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      You said you usually and sometimes when all of those hands are easy folds without even thinking.

      I dunno I just thought it was funny. I'm just getting started with the SNG thing because I'm feeling a terrible lack of progress in cash so it just kind of stuck out to me.
    • frzl
      frzl
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      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      AQ should be a standard raise from early position and i guess i would recommend it even to total beginners... just don´t go crazy if you get 3-bet.
      AT should be a fold every time and AJs can be an open raise from late-early position. just sticking to AQ+ is fine though imo.

      just to make it clear: AQ is definatly NOT "an easy fold without even thinking". even if the article says so. i´m pretty sure that the microlimit coaches are raising it every time...
    • FTRain
      FTRain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.02.2010 Posts: 33
      Try ICM Training from the site -> http://www.pokerstrategy.com/software/7/ Not bad program for some practice for the late phase. After some more SnGs i'm again around the starting point which start to become annoying and make me wonder is there some major leak in my game to get this ?! /i play 10 tables cascade view and after they left like 4 - tile/
      Profit
      Bank

      I'm also curios what happen with you after another hundred of Sngs? Do you think its better to play regular /non turbos/ SnGs ?
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
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      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      my advice re: multitabling is to find which method works best for you.

      tiled,stacked,cascade,stack+tiled etc...

      once you find which one gives you best consistency and comfort stick to it and practice.

      one method i will be trying soon is 8 tables tiled with 2 stacked in each section.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by frzl
      AQ should be a standard raise from early position and i guess i would recommend it even to total beginners... just don´t go crazy if you get 3-bet.

      just to make it clear: AQ is definatly NOT "an easy fold without even thinking". even if the article says so. i´m pretty sure that the microlimit coaches are raising it every time...
      Then why does the article say to fold it until late position. :f_confused:
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by tokyoaces
      Originally posted by frzl
      AQ should be a standard raise from early position and i guess i would recommend it even to total beginners... just don´t go crazy if you get 3-bet.

      just to make it clear: AQ is definatly NOT "an easy fold without even thinking". even if the article says so. i´m pretty sure that the microlimit coaches are raising it every time...
      Then why does the article say to fold it until late position. :f_confused:
      ;) I am raising it always.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      ;) I am raising it always.
      I will correct my chart, thanks!

      Are you mucking it if someone raises in front of you? It seems like it suddenly gets very weak in that situation.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      I strongly recomend folding AQ UTG if you are a new player, it is alot harder to profit from AQ UTG than people believe
    • fluffykiller
      fluffykiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 45
      AQ is a pain in the ass for me, so most of the time I try avoid playing it in early game, especially out of position, or play it really carefully.

      Didn't update for a time now, since I had some work to do and did not play much.

      Today I finished my last 5 sessions. And the only thing I can say is.... Variance is a killer! Loosing with overpairs, dominating hands is so painful but I think I am at a point where I have stopped tilting and just face the outcome and move on playing other tables.

      Playing sets of 10tables and after 20mins you see you have only 4 left and not a single one yet in the money hurts but I think I have edge over the players on this limit since when I get into the money I usually dominate (or at least play a lot better) them.

      Here's the results from 10 sets.

      1 = -$19
      2 = -$19
      3 = +$2
      4 = -$4
      5 = +$5
      6 = -$25
      7 = +$2
      8 = -$4
      9 = -$1
      10 = +$17

      Total = -$46

      As you can see the firs half of the sets were horrible. But after that I have started to analyze my game with SNGwizard, I think it helps my end game.

      I still have patience to play those fishy turbos and hope that I can overcome the variance at some point.

      Feeling comfortable playing 10 tables at a time, but I won't increase the number of tables until I get some profit. I'll see that results will another 10 sets show.

      If you guys have any comment or advice about multitabling turbos I would be glad to hear/talk about them!
    • Christorian
      Christorian
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      Joined: 11.10.2009 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by tokyoaces
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      ;) I am raising it always.
      I will correct my chart, thanks!

      Are you mucking it if someone raises in front of you? It seems like it suddenly gets very weak in that situation.
      In early position in early game stage I fold AQo and raise AQs but I'm a massive early game/position nit :)
      Fold to a raise in front of you.

      Moshman advises the same btw.
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