for your entertainment :( pls help!

    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      hi guys, this is my first thread in ps.com and most unfortunately it is in the downswing session.

      i'm currently facing the 1st downswing of my poker career albeit a rather short one, slightly less than 200k hands.

      alittle background story, i started playing poker with my own capital of $50, and grinded from NL2 to NL5 and to NL10, progressing only when i've made more than 25BI for the next limit.

      after overcoming the initial struggling phase, i breezed through NL2 and NL5, hardly have any losing sessions.

      the transition to NL10, was intially jerky, losses and wins here and there. subsequently, i manage a breakthrough in terms making profits greater than the last high, but only to succumb to a endless down swing.

      hand after hand, i constantly get beat. 3bets from my pocket aces are not respected, getting drawn out of the turn and river, set over set, pockets over pockets, everything seem to go wrong.

      yes, i do get my nut flops, but i hardly get paid off. and it seems like im always having the second best hand, which is worse then getting rag cards.

      on one hand i noticed that the NL10 players seem to be really much worse then NL2/5 players, but the fact that i'm losing to them probably only makes things worse.

      here's the best part of the story, my graph.
      [img]]http://tinypic.com/r/2nbehoj/6[/img]
      as you can see, im running way above EV. which really really confuses me. does this mean that i've been playing wrongly all this while? as most ppl with downswings have winnings way below EV..
      1 possible explanation would be that i'm always having the 2nd best hand, e.g. AA vs straights on flop.

      on the contrary, my leak buster shows that i've played really well, much better than my earlier days.
      http://i45.tinypic.com/wc25xs.jpg
      could the leak buster be wrong?
      i really need to get out of this.. it's killing me......... thankfully with bonuses and rakeback, im scrapping through.. guys if you have any constructive advice please, i would really love to hear them.
      thank you very much
  • 8 replies
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      sry but you have to you refer to the links above for the picture, i cant post images i'm not sure why.

      graph: http://tinypic.com/r/2nbehoj/6

      leakbuster: http://i45.tinypic.com/wc25xs.jpg
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      guys, im nt feeling the love in here! :(
    • Navrark
      Navrark
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2010 Posts: 313
      Yikes, I clicked that one link of yours and there is this disturbing video of a woman breaking a guy's head open. Yuck!

      I really don't understand why people want to watch crap like that. Then they wonder why people go on shooting rampages, and are unable to connect the dots...

      Anyway, you know I can relate to what the OP is saying. I was playing FL before I found PS.com and I was cleaning up at the FL10 tables. I got to FL20 and just kept losing and losing.

      I just don't know what it was. There were still plenty of fish at that level, and my PTR ratings were really good, I think B+. I was sure I was playing a good game but my financial results were in the negative. I got so discouraged I have pretty much given up on FL now and am loving playing NL2 and NL SNG's.

      I have always wondered how winning and losing streaks work. I have noticed funny things in the past playing BlackJack, how one spot on the table kept getting dealt BlackJacks. Someone was sitting at that spot and kept getting BlackJacks and then decided to leave the table. The spot was empty for long while until another player sat in that spot. Now he was getting BlackJack after BlackJack.

      I think there are streaks that affect a certain spot on the table, or streaks that affect you personally. I wonder if the streak affects you personally, if you can sit down and play out your streak at play money tables, or at a computer game against AI opponents?

      I have noticed streaks follow me before, where I will lose at the Casino and then come home and lose in the computer game. I once played out such a streak on the computer, and the next time I went to the Casino I took a nice win.

      Anyway, sorry to ramble on OP. Just hoping to give you some ideas how you may escape this troubled time.

      Nav
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      hi nav, please do not associate me with that whatever video cause i played no part in that! hahaha. and thank you for your insightful post! may i know ultimately what you suggest?

      anyway just to update, i'm slowly normalising my winnings again, but not too stable yet, will play even more! cheers
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Well yes running above EV could mean youre getting lucky, but you could be trading that for coolers instead which do not impact the ev line really.

      As to your stats..is this 6max or FR? I'll assume it's 6max, looks like it to me
      You're pretty tight preflop, but you should probably win on nl10 with these stats, especially since you have a good steal% (so youre tight oop and loose IP, well done).

      Your CO steal% is actually pretty high. When raising 1st in on CO, remember to look at the BU. If he is loose, you should open less marginal hands that you will have trouble playing postflop OOP. On the other hand, if he is tight and there are loose fishes in the blinds, you want to open many hands that you can play in position against these players.

      You call too many 3bets, 35% call 3bet is too much. On NL10 you can get away with just 4betting or folding pretty much, with the odd AQ or slowplay (premium) call. You're probably calling the 3bets and then not knowing what to do afterwards with hands like TT, 99, AJ, KQ, marginal hands like that.

      You cbet too little. A value between 70 and 80% should be more normal for NL10. It is weird that you are so tight preflop and don't cbet - since you're tight pre you should have stronger hands to cbet with more often on the flop. You definately have to cbet air too on all but bad boards.

      Consequently, because you only seem to cbet very strong hands on the flop, your turn cbet% is high. As you start cbetting more air, and maybe some less strong hands, this value will drop and that will be normal.

      Otherwise your stats look surprisingly standard for someone running b/e on NL10 for so long. You probably have most leaks postflop which are very hard to spot in a stat analysis (flop play seems especially important to analyze, since your won when saw flop is so low). It would help if you played tracked and got bronze and silver status so I could suggest that you watch some low limit SH videos, for example by Hasenbraten. They're very good for low limit players and should give you a very good idea of how to play winning.

      Good luck
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      hi coach fongie, most appreciative of your extremely constructive reply. can i actually further this discussion. my responses are in blue below.
      Originally posted by Fongie
      1)Well yes running above EV could mean youre getting lucky, but you could be trading that for coolers instead which do not impact the ev line really.

      2)As to your stats..is this 6max or FR? I'll assume it's 6max, looks like it to me
      You're pretty tight preflop, but you should probably win on nl10 with these stats, especially since you have a good steal% (so youre tight oop and loose IP, well done).

      3)Your CO steal% is actually pretty high. When raising 1st in on CO, remember to look at the BU. If he is loose, you should open less marginal hands that you will have trouble playing postflop OOP. On the other hand, if he is tight and there are loose fishes in the blinds, you want to open many hands that you can play in position against these players.

      4)You call too many 3bets, 35% call 3bet is too much. On NL10 you can get away with just 4betting or folding pretty much, with the odd AQ or slowplay (premium) call. You're probably calling the 3bets and then not knowing what to do afterwards with hands like TT, 99, AJ, KQ, marginal hands like that.

      5)You cbet too little. A value between 70 and 80% should be more normal for NL10. It is weird that you are so tight preflop and don't cbet - since you're tight pre you should have stronger hands to cbet with more often on the flop. You definately have to cbet air too on all but bad boards.

      6)Consequently, because you only seem to cbet very strong hands on the flop, your turn cbet% is high. As you start cbetting more air, and maybe some less strong hands, this value will drop and that will be normal.

      7)Otherwise your stats look surprisingly standard for someone running b/e on NL10 for so long. You probably have most leaks postflop which are very hard to spot in a stat analysis (flop play seems especially important to analyze, since your won when saw flop is so low). It would help if you played tracked and got bronze and silver status so I could suggest that you watch some low limit SH videos, for example by Hasenbraten. They're very good for low limit players and should give you a very good idea of how to play winning.

      Good luck
      1)i would believe that the latter is true, AA KK running into sets, sets into higher sets, shoving on the turn when oppponent player hit his set.

      2)pardon me but im playing FR, is that a bad thing if my stats are on FR instead of 6max?

      3) thank you for your advice i've always been refering to my HUD

      4) is it wrong to call a 3bet with medium pocket pairs and below? because approx 11% to flop a set, which in this case i imply that i have great implied odds to wipe out opponents stack, its a positive EV move right? but ultimately i'm begining to suspect this as being a major leak.

      5) my cbet is actually fine-tuned(well at least i thought it was lols) with the play at NL10. because i realise at NL10, there are alot more LOOSE aggressive fishes, who calls my "strong" air all the way to the river with just middle or low pairs or medium pocket pairs; is it then right to bet all the way to the river with air? i tried that and i wasnt too comfortable with the results, please advise!
      i strictly cbet according to opponents nature( fold to cbet stat, vpip, aggression) i dont usually fire blanks OOP unless its a semi bluff, and check to gauge opponents strength and fire a bluff on the turn/river(delayed cbet) when the opportunity arises- possible flush, broadway over card on the turn/river, hence having higher turn cbet stat.

      6) thanks for your advice!

      7) i would like to admit that im pretty lost at bluffing against the NL10. generally this happens with a drawing hole card AK, that i have 3betted. it happens with high frequency that when i cbet with AK, i get called or reraised all in. if i get reraised, its an automatic fold against big stack.
      if i get called OOP, i usually have to check on the turn and probably get fired.
      if get called IP, opponent usually fires, or check it down, only to expose his pockets or middle pair. please advise on this!

      yes im trying my best to get tracked by pokerstrategy, and should be getting my ranks pretty soon. i would really love to watch the videos and have access to articles after reading them through my friend.

      thank you so much fongie, i'm most looking forward to your next insightful reply. :)
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Originally posted by supeyrio
      2)pardon me but im playing FR, is that a bad thing if my stats are on FR instead of 6max?
      Nah, actually I think then they're probably good and not nitty at all. You shouldn't take my word for this though cause I'm not a FR player and haven't got a sample size to compare with my stats or something like that though, but atleast it's not very tight at all.


      4) is it wrong to call a 3bet with medium pocket pairs and below? because approx 11% to flop a set, which in this case i imply that i have great implied odds to wipe out opponents stack, its a positive EV move right? but ultimately i'm begining to suspect this as being a major leak.
      It's important to be realistic with how often you're going to actually stack people. For example, if you think someone has AK in their 3betting range, obviously they're going to miss the flop 2/3rds of the time and you won't stack them if you hit your set then. Also, QQ or even KK will get overcards on the board sometimes, and then they won't give you a stack either.
      Now again, I don't play much FR - were it 6max I'd say you should never setmine in 3bet pots 100bb deep against 1 player - but I'd say generally that you shouldn't setmine in FR either against 3bets unless it's against one of those legendary ultranits who you have a pretty certain read on only 3bet with KK and AA. Then if you get something like ~11-15:1 implieds you can probably setmine profitably against them.

      This is probably one of the most common micro stakes leaks - to setmine too light and in 3bet pots - but also one of the easiest ones to fix.

      5) my cbet is actually fine-tuned(well at least i thought it was lols) with the play at NL10. because i realise at NL10, there are alot more LOOSE aggressive fishes, who calls my "strong" air all the way to the river with just middle or low pairs or medium pocket pairs; is it then right to bet all the way to the river with air? i tried that and i wasnt too comfortable with the results, please advise!
      i strictly cbet according to opponents nature( fold to cbet stat, vpip, aggression) i dont usually fire blanks OOP unless its a semi bluff, and check to gauge opponents strength and fire a bluff on the turn/river(delayed cbet) when the opportunity arises- possible flush, broadway over card on the turn/river, hence having higher turn cbet stat.
      Well, this is a hard topic to talk about "on paper" so to speak. I understand what you mean by adapting to the loose fishes (who are by the way mostly passive not agressive), but even if they're loose they're going to miss the flop about 2/3rds of the time. Adapting your cbet to opponents stats is good, but it's even more important to adapt according to the board nature - if it's very wet, fish will have a hand to call with more often. If it's dry, there's really no good reason not to cbet against normal fishes.
      Delayed cbets are usually better in my experience against regular players, because they expect you to cbet with air and not the turn. But the fish only look at their hand, and if they have something on the flop they call if they don't they fold. It's less likely for them to have a hand with 3 cards on the board than with 4 :)

      Your turn and river bluff policies seem good. You shouldn't be firing air all the way to river with air against people who will not fold, of course :)


      7) i would like to admit that im pretty lost at bluffing against the NL10. generally this happens with a drawing hole card AK, that i have 3betted. it happens with high frequency that when i cbet with AK, i get called or reraised all in. if i get reraised, its an automatic fold against big stack.
      if i get called OOP, i usually have to check on the turn and probably get fired.
      if get called IP, opponent usually fires, or check it down, only to expose his pockets or middle pair. please advise on this!
      Yeah, AK is admittedly a hand I have trouble with sometimes in FR too - cause I'm used to just shipping it in 6max :f_p:
      I play it like this (good fr players feel free to disagree :P ) according to certain critera.
      - Villain 1: Regular who calls 3bets a lot but very rarely 4bet (likely KK+).
      Easy 3bet/fold for value. Postflop cbetting will be profitable because he has a wide calling range pre and thus will have a weaker range on the flop generally.
      - Villain 2: Regular who folds to a lot of 3bets and very rarely 4bets (KK+, also known as nit).
      Against this person 3betting is bad, because it turns your hand into a bluff. If villain is either folding or shoving better hands, why would you 3bet a hand that has good value like AK? Against this person I would just call preflop and 3bet 72o instead, and play the hand postflop for value. This keeps his worse aces in the pot and you can get value postflop instead - of course, it might take some practice to get used to what peoples ranges postflop are and how hard you can play an AK top pair for value, but it will come with experience, posting hands in hand eval forums and so on.
      Also note that this person is perfect to 3bet bluff against, because he will fold soooo often.

      If you think someones calling range is the classic "hands that dont want to 4bet but dont want to fold" range (something like TT, JJ, QQ, AK - btw this guy I would flat AK against too cause he doesnt call worse aces preflop) - then you can probably safely c/f on most flops on nl10 because you're not going to get them to fold and you're not experienced enough to know when they will fold on later streets.

      Also as to bluffing... you don't have to think much about it on except for the cbet part :f_grin:

      Anyway, I think posting hands here, watching videos and live coachings if you have time is the best way to see how someone who really knows how to play plays.
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      hi coach fongie, most appreciative of your uber constructive advice once again! thank you for your time, i will read and re- read to abosrb the essence of your words! thanks, will update on my status sooN!