NL5 - preflop KK

    • Duudalinja
      Duudalinja
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2009 Posts: 1,030
      Lately I'm gettin` into really bad situations - KK versus AA, where I'm total underdog.
      So now question comes up - is it possible to fold KK preflop at these limits?
      For example FR situation:

      UTG raises, CU (Hero) 3bet, UTG almost insta shoves
      UTG stats approx. 9/7 (VPIP/PFR)

      Or any other situation, where as answer to my 3bet I get instant all in from players with solid TAG stats and full stack? Ofc range of looser player is a lot wider, so that's not really the question about them.
      As far as I checked equity against such a tight player is ~60%, if he 4bet and shove with QQ+, AK and AQs, so it feels more like coinflip.
      Your thoughts? :)
  • 8 replies
    • ShadowOfLight1337
      ShadowOfLight1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.04.2009 Posts: 239
      So far I've been questioning KK as well...

      Because usually with a 100BB Deep stack when I raise, they reraise, I rereraise and they shove, the weakest hand that they'll show up will either be AK or QQ which is rare, because most people who play ABC poker at these limits will probably just call down my 4bet with that hand, sometimes even fold AK.

      So... Yeah. Fortunately I've sucked out my share of KK vs AA so far, so I'm still good, but yeah, I know people say "don't fold KK" but when you only see AA when you show down, how can you not doubt this?
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      When you check PokerTracker and it says you win 83% with KK and has an ungodly green number next to it ... you tend to stop worrying about the one time you ran in AA and lost.
    • ShadowOfLight1337
      ShadowOfLight1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.04.2009 Posts: 239
      Originally posted by tokyoaces
      When you check PokerTracker and it says you win 83% with KK and has an ungodly green number next to it ... you tend to stop worrying about the one time you ran in AA and lost.
      That's postflop when people actually call you down and not 5bet you.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by ShadowOfLight1337
      That's postflop when people actually call you down and not 5bet you.
      Hand history or it didn't happen. The case where you don't have equity to call is so rare at this limit.
    • ShadowOfLight1337
      ShadowOfLight1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.04.2009 Posts: 239
      Something like this?



      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      SB (Hero):
      $9.60
      BB:
      $10.30
      UTG2:
      $7.90
      MP1:
      $9.95
      MP2:
      $10.20
      MP3:
      $15.75
      CO:
      $13.80
      BU:
      $11.00


      Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K.
      UTG2 raises to $0.30, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.70, BB folds, UTG2 raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $3.75, UTG2 raises to $8.20, Hero calls $4.20.

      Flop: ($15.9) Q, K, 2 (2 players)


      Turn: ($15.9) 6 (2 players)


      River: ($15.9) T (2 players)


      Final Pot: $15.9.
      Results follow:

      UTG2 shows a pair of aces(A A).
      Hero shows three of a kind, kings(K K).

      Hero wins with three of a kind, kings(K K).
    • Duudalinja
      Duudalinja
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2009 Posts: 1,030
      Well, I won't ask such a questions if it would happen rare enough to stay unnoticed, but lately I had KK vs AA preflop way too often and in more or less similar situations... There's no doubt KK will always be profitable in long run, but it's always nice to avoid loss and I believe this is situation where it could be possible, I'm just not sure about if folding in this 4bet/shove situation is profitable enough.
      Suckout can always happen, that's why there's always ~18% left even KK vs AA situation. :)
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Yeah if UTG2 is a known tight reg then I could see just flatting pre-flop. However if an Ace doesn't hit I'm guessing the money is still going in anyway so why sweat it?

      I just don't see that hand as something you wouldn't push pre-flop without knowing that the villian was a 2+2 reg or something.
    • peche025
      peche025
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2008 Posts: 1,387
      I think it is possible to lay down KK pre. Stats you might want to take a look at are his 3bet or 4bet percentage, if these are v small I think it's best to let go, also if villian is a reg you play frequently against watch him play against the other regs. It's the best way to get a line on his play. Maybe you'll find out, he'll call KK vs 3bet but 4bet AA or something.

      tokyoaces makes a good point of flat calling pre, when you raise, you isolate yourself against the best of his range so prob only KK or AA if you flat call your playing KK vs his 7% opening range.

      Hope it helps

      peche