[NL2-NL10] Moving from NL25 to NL50

    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      First of all, if this belongs in a different part of the forum, then I apologize and please feel free to move it.

      My bankroll is almost to the point where I would have 30 buy-ins for SSS NL50. I've taken a few successful shots at NL50 already. I noticed in the BRM article though that it recommends $400 or 40 buy-ins before moving to NL50 and I saw a thread elsewhere in the forum where Berliner recommended 50 buy-ins before moving up. Is there any particular reason that 30 buy-ins is considered insufficient for NL50?

      Thanks,
      Kknight
  • 16 replies
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      If you´re ready to move down again if you lost some stacks, feel free to give it a try. But swings of 10 Stacks are not so seldom. ;)
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      It's not so much that you need more for NL50 as that you can get away with much fewer than normal below there. Short stacking is low variance but also low win rate so you can't get away with so few buy ins when your opponents are half decent and fairly tight.

      Other bankroll management schemes can also work but this way provides a good balance of stability and fast ascension through the limits.
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Originally posted by Berliner1982
      If you´re ready to move down again if you lost some stacks, feel free to give it a try. But swings of 10 Stacks are not so seldom. ;)
      Fair enough...I'll probably make a gradual transition (replace one of my four NL25 tables with a NL50 if I can find an exceptionally loose table.)

      Originally posted by Howard182
      Short stacking is low variance but also low win rate so you can't get away with so few buy ins when your opponents are half decent and fairly tight.
      I have noticed that the NL50 tables are generally tighter than the NL25...at least according to the Plrs/flop number in the lobby.

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • degnic
      degnic
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.02.2007 Posts: 3,953
      I personally started with some mixed tables before fully going to NL50 (like 2 NL25 SSS & 2 NL50 SSS) and it worked well for me. It's good way of learning the differences between these limits. NL50 is more tight indeed, it takes time to find good tables, I personally played NL50 SSS on jackpot tables mostly because they are more lose & less crowded by SSS players. I know you don't play on partypoker, so I don't know how it is on other sites :)

      good luck moving up :)
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Hi degnic,

      Thanks for the tips! I have been able to find several NL50 tables where 40-50% of the players are seeing the flop...it just takes a bit more patience since they aren't as prevelant as they are at NL25.

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi Kknight!

      As Berliner already mentioned: if you want to give it a try: do it! But be prepared to move down again if you lose. And as degnic alreday said: it might be helpful if you mix the tables at the beginning to become familiar with the new limit.
      Since the tables at NL50 are not as loose as at NL25 I strongly recommend that you make some table selection. What about your plans for the future? Do you already have some big stack strategy plans? :D

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Hi Puschkin,

      So far, I've been playing 1 NL50 table and 3-5 NL25 tables...so just starting off slowly :)

      Table selection has always been a priority for me. I tend to go for the tables with the highest "players/flop" numbers...typically anywhere from 40-55%.

      My plans are to get my bankroll to $600 or so (currently at ~$315,) then move to Full Tilt to take advantage of the bonus + Strategy Points :D I then plan on playing SSS NL100 until I become silver here so that I can start reading the BSS articles. I'll probably play both SSS and BSS as long as the SSS continues to be as profitable as it has been. I've gone from $70 starting bankroll to the current level in about a month and a half or two months. I've also moved from NL10 to NL25 and now slowly to NL50 :D

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Why do downswings seem to hit when moving up? :(

      I went ahead and moved to 4 tables of NL50 yesterday after a nice upswing at NL25 took my bankroll to $375. The upswing continued at NL50 for about 10 minutes, taking my bankroll above $400. After that, I went on the absolute worst run of cards for the rest of yesterday evening and today during lunch. I'm now at $307. I've decided that if I hit $300, I'll move back to NL25 again.

      The thing is that I've carefully reviewed my play and determined that MOST (like 90-95%) of the downswing is not due to big mistakes, but just VERY bad luck. There are maybe one or two hands where I can say "I shouldn't have done that...that was stupid," but aside from those couple of hands, every loss has been a case of:

      1) A dominated hand sucking out (AJ beating AQ, AJ beating AK, etc.)
      2) Running a good hand into a better hand (QQ vs AA, QQ vs KK, etc.)
      3) Raising preflop with AK, getting 5 callers and then missing the flop by a mile (or a kilometer for you Europeans ;) )
      4) Losing a coinflip all-in preflop (AK vs 55, etc)

      The few times I've gotten a premium hand (KK or AA) I've ended up buying the blinds or winning very little...and the couple of times I've hit the flop hard, I've gotten no action. For example I flopped a straight in a 5 or 6 way pot with QJo in the big blind today (flop came 89T with two to a flush)...I bet something like 1/2 pot and it folded around :(

      I believe that I made a post very similar to this one back when I moved from NL10 to NL25. And it happened the same way. I was on a massive upswing at NL10, it continued for a short time at NL25 and then fell apart. Fortunately it never got bad enough to force me to move back down.

      Oh well, enough griping...back to the grind :)
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      Keep it up. I had my downs as well. Lost 10 Stacks 2 days ago and made 13 stacks in a big session yesterday. ;)
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      This downswing when moving up seems a common enough phenomena for me as well.

      When I first went to Titan, I played the NL20, and it seemed like the easiest thing in the world. Every time I was favorite, I won. I added more than $100 to my BR in less than 2 weeks, and this was at a level when a buy-in for SSS was only $4. My very first session at NL50 cost me 12 buy-ins. $120. It was only with premium hands. I lost those buy-ins in a 300 game session, playing 6-8 tables, and I was so shell shocked, I just ran up the white flag. With PT, you can review your play, and I was able to look at the losing hands, and mostly it was just bad luck. AA got cracked, KK too, and the worst, QQ, in which I made a flush, but 88 made a straight flush. In most cases I was all in as favourite.

      Sometimes it seems to happen this way, and I have found when I am in a session that looks like it is going this way, get out. Stop. Take a break and come back tomorrow.

      Yesterday I had a session of NL50 on a site which was very much of that ilk. I lost 7 buy-ins, and a few of them were:
      JJ, all in preflop, against KJ. He made a straight.
      JJ, all in preflop against 88, set.
      AA, all in preflop against 99, set.
      I thought my luck was changing when I raised in late position with AQ, and got called by 3 limpers. Flopped a gutshot, and put my last $5 into a $16 pot, which got filled up by all callers, and made my straight on the turn. Collected a $36.60 pot. I was busy congratulating myself, unticking autopost blinds, and getting ready to leave the table, when the next hand delivered KK. Raised the standard, got one caller, who checkraised a bland flop, and when I called his all-in, he turned over a set of eights. I gave back $25.10 right there.
      The worst hand of all really, was when I reraised an early fishy raise, which then reraised me all in preflop, with AKs. I thought I was probably beat when I didn't make a pair, but was astounded to find that his hand was 89, which, of course, had made a straight.

      Some sessions are just like that. But it is a good thing that I can get these people who play badly. It never feels like it when I am getting worked over, but these hands are the basis of my future profit. And this site is one where I have been winning regularly, so I guess my turn to give some back must come eventually. I've been playing long enough now, nearly 12 months, to have seen it come around more than a few times. I have the bankroll to survive, the skills to manage it properly, and thankfully when I can review the play and see that I have lost these pots to really bad players, I am comfortable, if not entirely happy.
    • degnic
      degnic
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.02.2007 Posts: 3,953
      Originally posted by aciddrop
      I thought my luck was changing when I raised in late position with AQ, and got called by 3 limpers. Flopped a gutshot, and put my last $5 into a $16 pot, which got filled up by all callers, and made my straight on the turn. Collected a $36.60 pot. I was busy congratulating myself, unticking autopost blinds, and getting ready to leave the table, when the next hand delivered KK. Raised the standard, got one caller, who checkraised a bland flop, and when I called his all-in, he turned over a set of eights. I gave back $25.10 right there.
      hehe, I've had similar on NL100 SSS. First won almost 60$ pot with quads against players who were chasing straight / flush / whatnot. then unticked the autopost blind mark and I get AA from UTG straight ahead, I raise more than usual (8$) because I don't want to get multiway action. UTG+1 puts all-in and ofcourse I call and he shows AKs and hits his flush on river :D
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Berliner - Thanks for the encouragement & congratulations on the 13 buy-in comeback ;)

      Aciddrop - Thanks for the encouragement, it's helpful to hear about similar experiences from others. You mirror my thoughts almost exactly...especially the part about how your long-term profit comes from these bad players. The suckouts don't feel good, but at the same time you are hoping they make that play again on the next hand :D

      degnic - "Ouch!" That's a pretty bad beat...especially with a big stack.

      Thanks everyone,
      Kknight
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi guys!

      It's sad to hear that you had to experience a downswing, but honestly it's the best thing that can happen to you because
      a) you know that there are bad players which will donate their money to you in the long run
      b) you can work on your psychological skills to be better players even in a downswing meaning that you always play your A-game and don't lose additional money during a downswing.

      I hope that all of you come back on the right track and that your bankrolls grow again.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
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      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      I only smile about suckouts. ;)
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      @Puschkin & Berliner,

      Thanks for the replies and encouragement :D I took the weekend off and started up again today. Ended today's session with the hand that I posted in the User News Forum :D

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      Good to see that. :)

      Greetz
      Berliner1982