1st Hand Evaluation...a little insight please

    • ghostminer
      Joined: 22.03.2009 Posts: 14
      I played this hand recently at my local casino in a £30 freezeout and would like to know your thoughts...please :)

      Villain – 29k
      Hero – 26k – 9sTs
      Blinds: 300-600

      Hero raises pre flop from MP2 to 1800. – I conceived my image at the table to be tight at this time as I had showed down 4 or 5 hands over the last hour or so which were all big hands, a straight, 2 flushes and a flopped set of kings which knocked someone out. And I had barely played a hand other than the ones I won in that hour.

      CO calls. – This guy was a regular who is a decent thinking player and usually very tight.

      Button calls – this guy was a bit of a calling station and obviously very loose as he would be in almost every pot that didn’t have a really big raise in front of him. With a lot of reckless continuation betting on the flop (getting check raised a lot of the time and folding).

      SB and BB fold.

      FLOP: 7d8sQs (pot 6300)

      This is where I was planning on a big check raise. The button had been betting on 9 out of 10 flops all day that were checked to him so I thought this would be a good spot for the check raise. This was also the plan if the CO raises. If CO raises and Button calls I was going to shove knowing that the CO couldn’t call after seeing his raise called then check raised and figured I had enough outs and was ready to race against the Button if he decided to call.

      Hero checks
      CO checks
      Button checks (there goes that plan)

      TURN: 6d (pot 6300)

      Now since I hit my straight I wanted some value out of this but still wanted to protect from a diamond flush.

      Hero bets 4700
      CO calls
      Button raises to 10000

      Hero raises all-in for 19500 more
      CO folds
      Button calls and turns over 9dTd

      RIVER: 5d

      Hero 9sTs - has straight Ten high
      Viallain 9dTd – has flush Ten high

      What I want to know is if I played this right considering the tendencies of the 2 players that I noted at the top or what you would do differently in this situation?

      EDIT: if this is in the wrong section can a mod move it to the correct one, please and thank you :)
  • 9 replies
    • OnkelHotte
      Joined: 16.01.2005 Posts: 18,429
      Hi Ghostminder. I now moved this thread to the MTT strategy section.
      Please be advised that a professional hand evaluation by our hand judges requires at least silver status for these stakes,
    • nuffbluff
      Joined: 06.01.2010 Posts: 1
      i think your mistke bro, was , you should have pushed preflop, once you got called by the calling station, at the level of the blinds, he had to feel chip comited with only 9k left if he fold, simply too late to fold at that point. you let faith beat you.
    • ghostminer
      Joined: 22.03.2009 Posts: 14
      Originally posted by nuffbluff
      i think your mistke bro, was , you should have pushed preflop, once you got called by the calling station, at the level of the blinds, he had to feel chip comited with only 9k left if he fold, simply too late to fold at that point. you let faith beat you.
      i think youve gotten mixed up somwere lol i was never gonna shove 45bb or so preflop with no raises or limpers in front of me....thats crazy talk :P

      anyone esle got any advice?
    • JustErik
      Joined: 14.12.2009 Posts: 10
      Had a bit of difficulty reading the hand history. Maybe next time you could start off with an overview of the player's positions and stacks, not just the Villain's. I assume this is the Button? It's a bit easier if you stick to player positions. But that's just an aside :)

      I wouldn't have planned a check-raise unless I actually had something. If you had had the opportunity to make that move, you could have been in a load of trouble. So I'd be happy you didn't get the chance ;)

      What I do not understand in this hand is you saying

      [QUOTE]I wanted some value out of this but still wanted to protect from a diamond flush.[/quote]And then re-raising all in against a substantial re-raise by the Button. He wasn't going to go away after his raise being pot-committed so scaring him off wasn't going to work. Him being a calling station doesn't mean he's stupid so he would not raise like this unless he had something. In this case, a made straight and a flush draw. If you were worried about the flush, you should have folded or called. Folding a made straight is pretty much out of the question so calling wouldv'e been a better option imo.

      Bit of a bad beat he actually made his flush on the river, otherwise you'd have split the pot.

      I've no idea if this helps or not but I figured I'd give it a try ;)
    • ghostminer
      Joined: 22.03.2009 Posts: 14
      sorry about the bad layout, it was a hand i played in a live game so had no hand history to convert :p

      i see what you mean about calling instead of reshoving all in. with a bit of reflection it does seem the more sensible choice would be to call....but then if the diamond flush comes do i just shove all in, check fold, or check call his shove. this is were the problem of these kinds of hand are.

      thanks for your advice Erik :)
    • santostr
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663

      I don't think you can call and then fold a diamond river...
      On the turn you had THE NUTS! What is the problem in getting it in? You knew you were a big favorite...

      It sucks.. Specialy because it is live.. but that's poker...
    • JustErik
      Joined: 14.12.2009 Posts: 10
      I think on the river you would be best off checking and then folding if the Button bets at you. Unless you are given irresistible odds.

      The reason I highlighted "think" is because this is probably one of those situations where my experience is too little to make a proper case. But:

      You indicated that you were aware of the flush draw. Which means imo you should play like it. The Button has indicated he has at least a straight and is highly likely to be on a flush draw. Unless he's a player you've seen bluff on various occasions, there's no reason not to believe him if he bets the river.

      If you'd have gone all-in on the turn the Button would still have called. With a made straight and a flush draw I think there's very little you can do to make his call an unprofitable one. Although an all-in bet might indicate to him that you are also on a flush draw, which would make him hesitate at least. But he probably would still have called. After all, you're up against identical odds. And he'll have some chips left if he loses so technically he's not risking his tournament.

      Notice how I get into trouble there? It's an example of "if you think that I think that you think that I think..".

      Folding on the turn isn't an option even against a re-raise. As santos pointed out, you had the nuts and the best your opponent could have was exactly the same.

      Folding a straight is very, very difficult but not much different from folding 2 pair if you are convinced your opponent has trips. If you fold on the river, you'll still have 15-19k left (depending on whether I read your post right ;) ) which gives you an M value of 16.7-21.1, well ahead of any danger and more than enough to remain active for a good long time.

      I'm also thinking that the only mistake you made in this hand is not betting on the flop. You didn't have anything made but you had (in no particular order) an open ended straight draw, a gut-shot straight draw AND a flush draw. If you add that you raised pre-flop you could have just as easily now have a pair of Qs. I'd definitely have bet. Checking tells your opponents that you missed the flop or that you are planning to check-raise. Unless either opponent has a made hand they're not going to bet anyway which means you are giving away free cards. And while YOU want a free card to see if you hit any of your outs, you still don't want them to get one ;)

      I'm very curious to see more comments on this. It's a very tough problem, imo. Anyone able to do a quick EV on the various options?

      (Sorry about the size of the post btw..I ramble)
    • ghostminer
      Joined: 22.03.2009 Posts: 14
      thanks for the advice guys.

      @JustErik - i have no problems with a long post..has more feedback than a tiny post so its all good. you were saying i was aware of the flush draw and i should play like it. that is exactly the reason i shoved all in, my line of thinking was that he could easily have 45 here for a lower straight or nothing but 2 diamonds and possibly trips/2 pair as he was easily capable of reraising with draws (this guy was not only a calling station but a real life donkey lol) and if he also had the straight he obv didnt have a spade flush draw and so only 9T diamonds was the only hand i was afraid of him having as i had all other hands dominated. So i shoved all in trying to finish it there in case he was on just a draw and could fold or had 2 pair/trips which he wouldnt fold and id have had him dominated.

      anywas if anyone could do some EV calculations i would be greatful (i suck at that stuff) :f_confused:
    • TheRebuz
      Joined: 12.10.2008 Posts: 2,078
      u open raise it
      got 2 callers

      hit a great flop OESD, FD so u MUST C BET SHOVE IF SOME RAISE U
      u dont have a MADE hand u have big draw
      so u have something like 55% to hit ur draw with 2 card to came(turn+river) if turn is blank that doent hit ur draw ur chances to hit ur draw are cuted in half like 25% to hit it on river
      thats why u must Cbet flop when u have BIG chances to hit ur draw till river and put ur money in profitable spot + when u Cbet u have FEQ too so u can make them fold beter hands than yours like 22-66, 89, a7,a8, KJ,AT,A9 etc even 99 TT and dont giving them free cards to hit and out draw u,
      so put good bet on flop min 2/3 at least and shove if u got raised, if u got caled just bet min 2/3 pot on turn again on any card (if brick came u can still representing pair of Q or better, if A or K came on turn u can represent them too couse u were preflop agresor so u should Cbet turn too, and btw if pot on turn is like min 2/3 of ur stack left behind just shove it on any turn doesnt mater if hit ur draw or mised)


      and about that ev thing... is simple as this u have ~2% chances to hit an out on given street
      if u say ur hand is 9cTc

      flop 7c8dQc
      u have
      6 outs for str8 + 9 outs for flush =15 total
      so ur chances to hit 1 of ur 15 outs on turn is ~30 (less than 30%) and on river 30% = total like 60% (is more like 55% but for easy quick math just rounded to 2%) so if u dont hit turn ur chances ur cuted in half

      so in future just give 2% chances to hit for every out u have and than compare that to pot size to see did u have + or - ev spot