[NL2-NL10] NL4 JJ vs deep unknown

    • xero100
      xero100
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 1,355
      Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      UTG ($0.96)
      UTG+1 ($3.74)
      MP1 ($1.72)
      MP2 ($4.92)
      CO ($8.31)
      Button ($2.85)
      Hero (SB) ($3.96)
      BB ($1.36)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
      3 folds, MP2 calls $0.04, CO bets $0.18, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.16, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.14

      Flop: ($0.58) 7, 8, 2 (3 players)
      Hero bets $0.46, 1 fold, CO raises to $1.96, Hero raises to $3.46, CO calls $1.50

      Turn: ($7.50) 9 (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO raises to $4.67 (All-In), Hero calls $0.32 (All-In)

      River: ($8.14) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

      Total pot: $8.14 | Rake: $0.54

      Results:
      Hero had J, J (two pair, Jacks and twos).
      CO had K, K (two pair, Kings and twos).
      Outcome: CO won $7.60
      fold to re raise? I dont know why I done this really
  • 3 replies
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      If you're not deep yourself and MP2 isn't either (assuming CO will care about any of that), the fact that he has a big stack is irrelevant, it doesn't even hint at him being good, he could just have doubled up somehow by playing horribly and sucking out two hands before.

      I'd just 3-bet preflop by default, CO doesn't need a good hand to isolate the fishy MP2 and i don't really want to play JJ out of position against 2 players, too many flops with overcards that are hard to play correctly. I'd rather 3bet/fold it since i expect most people to still go ahead and 4bet a tight range against which we're no good anyway. If they call then we're golden, in a bigger pot with initiative.

      As played postflop I'd lead only for 2/3 and either go broke as you did or fold to a raise, depending on how i perceive CO. He could still have worse hands like 99-TT, i doubt he does that with 8x but maybe, if he's aggressive enough to also raise draws it's fine to go broke. Otherwise you're likely toast.


      Hope it helps.
    • xero100
      xero100
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 1,355
      ok it should be standart to 3bet in this situation.
      could you tell me more situations where I can 3bet with JJ because 3bet utg raiser is bit scary and I play with no stats at cake poker and playing 11-16tables (need to clear bonus not many days left and I cant play much)
      so other situation should be vs unknowns.
      I gess its too dificult to tell just by his stack size his pozicion and actions he made.and it too many perhaps.
      thank you for your help.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      I get the feeling you're looking for hard rules a bit too often, nothing is set in stone in a poker game. It'll be a good thing when you finish clearing your bonus, because i think you really need to play less tables for the time being. As it is you have to accept the fact that you DO NOT have enough information to decide what the best play is, since you have no idea what the other villains are doing because you're playing so many tables without stats. That means you CANNOT make optimal plays, and you need to settle for some default plays that suits your style.


      The reasons I 3bet JJ here are mostly:

      1. We're out of position, and it's likely going to be a multiway pot. JJ sucks at playing out of position without initiative in a multiway pot where we'll flop overcards often. So calling preflop and check/calling postflop is going to be really uncomfortable.

      2. That being said it's just too strong to fold against an unknown CO who raised over a limper, so i still want to play it.

      3. That leaves 3betting, and nothing really prevents me from doing so. It'll partly solve my positional problem by giving me initiative as well as a smaller stack/pot ratio. Nothing tells me yet that this guy is good, and since he's playing nl4 and not above, it's safe to assume he's just not good and will call my 3bet with worse.

      However that doesn't mean he will 4-bet with worse, as both tags and fish (except the really insane ones) alike tend to 4-bet a very tight range of KK+, against which i don't want to go broke, so i will fold to the 4bet. It might seem like it's sad folding JJ so maybe we shouldn't put ourselves into a 3bet/fold spot to begin with, but it's not. It is sad to flatcall and check/call check/fold postflop a lot in the dark. It's not sad to 3bet/fold, CO will fold or call our 3bet a lot more often than he will 4bet, and when he does 4bet, we're pretty confident we're a 4:1 dog, so folding is cool with us.


      Hope it helps.