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Shove or not this premium hand?

    • Svizac28
      Joined: 04.01.2010 Posts: 61
      I'm playing Pot Limit Omaha Hi $0.1/$0.2 6-max

      I'm in BB and get KhKcQcQs.

      Villian is UTG he's new to table and I dont have any reads on him.

      He has a full stack ($2) I have around $3 others have between $1.5 and $2.

      Anyway he raises to $0.7, 2 people pay and I 3bet to $0.35.

      To my surprise he 4bets to around $1, other people fold.

      I think for a bit and then push all-in, he pays my all-in.

      Now the question is was this the right play? KKQQs is obviously very good hand but if he has pocket aces i could be in trouble...

      P.S: sorry I couldnt post a converted hand something is messed up with my hand history file
  • 4 replies
    • trahhh
      Joined: 14.10.2009 Posts: 10
      he can have some blocker to you. so i would just call and ship 70% of the flops
    • Kaitz20
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I think since player raised UTG maybe better is call pf and play postflop.
      A lot of times if you get 4-bet people are AAxx and your KKQQ doens't play against that very often.
      Right now you likely have to call and get all-in likely any none Axx flop
    • OrcaAoc
      Joined: 06.08.2006 Posts: 4,983
      Calling Preflop and then folding some flops is awful, the reason is that if you call there is something like 2,2$ in with 1$ effectively behind. Since you will have almost always at least 4 outs the chance that you are actually ahead would have to be close to zero to justify folding. Since it is a low limit game and the player you playing against is new to the table the range is never that small, thus the play call preflop, fold some flops is absolutely terrible !

      Right play is to put the money in preflop.
    • Jim9137
      Joined: 13.11.2007 Posts: 5,608
      I don't like 3betting in microstakes for this reason. Hwang said that you shouldn't 3-bet unless you are prepared to play against 4-bet, and that shoves here: you are creating a very large pot with your 3bet, and when the pot gets large and opponent(s) move(s) in on you, more often than not you are faced with great odds to call and you still have to play catch-up. Even aces can be a dog (and frequently are) in multiwaypots, depending on the hands you are up against.

      If you have no idea what you are trying to achieve with a 3-bet (trying to get allin preflop? if everybody calls, ship any flop without an ace? what if someone 4-bets...), then I suggest you just call. It's a whole lot easier to play a small pot without iniative than a large 3-bet pot with iniative, as opponents will rarely make as large mistakes against you in the latter than the former. I don't think you considered the bet through, since you said you were surprised UTG repopped you - if you are not prepared/able to play against a 4bet, then don't 3bet at all.

      Anyway, funny fact:

      AA** 64.07% 384,263 264
      KhKcQcQs 35.93% 215,473 264

      So you are getting 2:1 odds to call against random aces. However, you can only call when you get at least 4:1 in implied odds, as your hand plays poorly now postflop. So time to count the dead money in the pot! You have already invested 35c, and the two other people 14c. It costs $1.65 to win 2.49d ($2 from your opponent, 49c deadmoney), effectively. You'd need at least $3.30 to justify a shove. So, fold.

      On a funny aside, if your hand was doublesuited, you are getting 1:1,5 odds, which would give you the odds to shove. Barely.

      Another fact that speaks against 3-betting in microstakes (beyond the fact that it doesn't actually ever achieve anything but bigger pots), is that assuming everybody just /called/ the 35c, the pot would be 4*35c=$1.40. So you are playing push/fold postflop, and with an overpair you rarely can fold, as your stack to pot ratio is so small.

      Moral of the story: don't play preflop. Play postflop. Fish will go broke anyway. :f_cool: