Playing high rake, loose passive/aggro tables

    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hi folks.

      Dumbarse post follows - please stop reading here if you lack the ability to respond with kid gloves on.

      I'm playing sessions at bwin atm and need some perspective.

      Tables are 5max and typically have at least three players playing with stats ranging from (VPIP/PFR/WTS/AF) 50/25/50/3.5 to 85/14/17/0.5 - typically tending toward more aggro and more showdown bound.

      Given the tendency of villians to call at least two streets and to be playing multiway to the turn if not river in most pots, how should I adjust my game?

      Note, the rake tends toward 3 - 3.5BB/100.

      I suspect a standard game should work - modified by:

      - ditching hands less playable multiway when first in from CO/BU.

      - tightening up MP3 (ie UTG) opening standards.

      - forget isolation raising except where (by some miracle) the players behind can comprehend the fold button works pre flop.

      What else? Call more with suited connectors down to 54s? Should I start open limping these suited connectors and low pairs rather than raising? Opening with 55 UTG and getting three to four callers every time just sucks (except where I hit my set and don't get runner runnered).

      The other question I have is whether it is sensible to be playing in this type of game? I only ask because I don't think I've ever played anything but losing months at bwin and too often get run down by gutshots/backdoor draws when villians often aren't making huge mistakes when calling down.

      Sorry for the noobish post - I just lack confidence that these games are easily beatable and suspect they're subject to massive variance.

      Should I persevere with these games or stick to low rake sites where it is easier to isolate loose passive and/or aggro players or get HU by the turn. Ofc I'm running reasonably badly which is colouring my judgement - I just don't want to burn any more cash at these types of sites if I have to play 100k hands to tend toward break even.
  • 7 replies
    • bakela
      bakela
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.11.2009 Posts: 460
      Hi. I'm playing at Everest and it's very loose there too. Rake is 5% and I don't think it's 3-3.5BB/100 more like 1.5-2BB/100. It's profitable for the long run. I have big problems profiting, but I think that my game needs improvement.
      Open raising is a must in most of the cases. Seeing raised pod with pocket pair and 3-4 opponents is great. The pot is big and if you hit your hand will pay really good :f_love: If you miss don't be insane about c-betting just play it passively with draw odds 22:1, so you have easy fold here even with initiative.
      When you are first to act at the BU you should feel very comfortable because of the position advantage.
      MP3 range could be tighter if CO and BU are aggressive and you are afraid of playing out of position.
      For isolating one limper you don't have very wide range according to the table. You can remove A9o isolating from MP3, but I won't give up JQo that easy :)
      Massive variance is a must :f_cry:
      I hope I have been helpful. I'm setting up a site to discuss live sessions for limits up to 0.5/1 (I'm not there yet :P ) and if you are interested you might join.
      After 100k hands a TAG should have made good profit. Just keep improving your game and results will come sooner or later.
    • One12ver
      One12ver
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.05.2008 Posts: 249
      Waiboy I know exactly what you mean. I play the FLSH games there too but have learnt because of the high rake, xtreem calling stations and low selection of tables that I only to play bwin when I want some fun or hot as hell.

      A good book that goes into detail on super SH play is: http://www.amazon.de/Limit-Holdem-Short-Handed-Strategies-Techniques/dp/1904468373/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1268761963&sr=1-5

      Remember SHLH is a hard game as it is, don´t make it harder than it has to be. Stick with the big sites( Stars FTP) and play the game you know how to and the winning will come. If your still playing bwin on the weekend maybe I´ll come join for some fun and at least you´ll have one guy @ the table that knows where the fold button is. :f_biggrin:
    • CoreySteel
      CoreySteel
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 3,366
      Originally posted by One12ver
      Remember SHLH is a hard game as it is, don´t make it harder than it has to be. Stick with the big sites( Stars FTP) and play the game you know how to and the winning will come.
      I'd tend to agree with that.
      I know you want to be bonus whore. I was too. But man, I'm done with it. I probably lost more than I won (with one "big" exception :P )
      Now I will stick with FTP and Stars for FL. Don't want to even hear about other sites... UNLESS, I get to the higher limits. +5/10. But yeah... That's gonna happen :P
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Thanks for the input guys... I'm a bit embarrassed by this post actually - total tilt!

      Originally posted by CoreySteel
      I know you want to be bonus whore. I was too. But man, I'm done with it. I probably lost more than I won.
      What was the killer - rake, style of game, other? (percentage weighted would be nice!).

      And I think there may be a lot of sense in this:

      Don't want to even hear about other sites... UNLESS, I get to the higher limits. +5/10.
      ...something worthy of being mulled over anyway!
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Hi!

      What I think that on micro stakes up to something like 1/2 it doesnt really matter where you play. Rake is a bitch in FL,especially for microstakes but fortunately players are very bad(everywhere) so you can beat even Ipokers 3,5-4 BB/100 rake plus points do give you quite a lote there actually so Combining both you can beat these stakes relatively easy, but that is just my opinion.

      However I think that problem gets in especially on 2/4 an 3/6 (talking about my IPoker experiance) where you meet a lot of regulars that are not that bad and even if they are exploitable in some way that wont suffice beating that very high rake. I joined Ipoker because I read that tableselection is easy there but I quite disagree now, I find pokerstars much fishier even though there are more very good players to be found(but obviously you should try to avoid them)

      so yea....pokerstars and probably FT(havent tried it yet though) is where you should play FL when you reach decent stakes, imo that is:)


      Maybe I made it harder for me writing this comment ;)
    • Foxxxen
      Foxxxen
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.12.2007 Posts: 3,428
      I also play the 2/4 and 3/6 games at Ongame (bwin etc.) and I have the exact same experience as the OP (made my own post about this in the gold forum, but apparently more response here :P ). The LAGs are just destroying me. However, what I have started doing, and what works since there is a rather small player base there, is to take some time and work out the profiles of the regs. I do this in HEM, looking at every aspect of their game, trying to find weak spots. For example, this one guy have a turn raise of 50%, so I started 3betting him light on the turn and sure enough he started folding. I think it is a reasonable time investment to do this. Also, play only 1-2 games at a time and really focus on playing optimally against each player.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hey Foxxxen - sound advice that. I think I would have ended up doing something like that as well had I stayed at bwin. Glad to hear a bit of extra work can lead to insta results!