Importance of high A.F.

    • teameltaco
      teameltaco
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2009 Posts: 26
      Hi,

      I have been playing full time on-line fixed limit since the beginning of Feb this year but have played on and off for around 7 years. I also play regular live tournament poker with success.

      I am currently playing SH 0.25/0.50, 0.50/1.00, 1/2 and 2/4 (mainly 0.50/1.00) fixed limit with profit at all these levels. I have a VPIP of 27%, A.F. of 1.3 and an average gain of 6.4 big blinds /100 hands.

      I have studied my game and the Poker Strategy articles and in order to improve further I think I need to reduce my VPIP and increase my A.F. However, when I have tried to adapt my game I have incurred losses.

      I would be interested to know how my stats fit to a successful profile - particularly if I play more at higher levels.
  • 17 replies
    • bakela
      bakela
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.11.2009 Posts: 460
      Hi.
      I'm just playing 3 months now and I can't give you any real advice. If you have such a nice profit line and beating totally these limits you can try higher limits. The strategies are mainly for us the newbies. I like them and they help me a lot but you are a lot better player than me and they will hardly help you that much. You can post hands, watch trainings these might help.
      You are crushing these limits. It's gonna be awesome if you increase your winrate higher.
      Good luck. Keep crushing :f_biggrin:

      P.S.: I'm one of the players that you are beating, so you shouldn't take me too seriously.
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Hi!

      For the mikro/low stakes you mentioned I consider myself as pretty succesfull although I havent played them for a while now but still,my opinion.

      Stats that PS suggests(which are more or less pure TAG style stats) will get you to something like 25/19/2/37

      I think these are very good stats for these uber high rake limits as I think that laggy style is not that good here(+ its much harder to play)

      Your VPIP of 27 is not bad(unless your PFR is too low,that would be lower than 21) it just suggest that your style is more laggy.But I really dont like your 1,3 AF which is way too low. Whenever I see a guy of 1-1,5 AF my first assumption is that he is very straightforward,very weak,exploitable and what is probably the most improtant on lower limits he misses value

      I think AF needs to be at least 1,8+ but my ideal is somewhere around 2,1(that is nothing proven though:) )

      Hope it helps
    • Foxxxen
      Foxxxen
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.12.2007 Posts: 3,428
      Do you play the same way on each level? I think for the lower levels, 0.25/0.50 and 0.5/1 you can do well with a low aggression factor. On 1/2 and 2/4 I am surprised that you are turning such a big profit. Do you have a sufficient sample size on these levels? On the other hand, if you are playing in very loose-aggressive games, then a more passive profile can be successful.

      Hey, why don't you record a video and upload it for us to watch, maybe we can spot some leaks för you and perhaps learn a thing or two from your play as well!
    • cash4mebg
      cash4mebg
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.08.2009 Posts: 613
      As you are talking about stats I have a similar question. What is the normal 3-bet preflop value ?
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      I don't believe in stats "needing" to be something, surely there are some winners out there with 1.5 AF or something, it's all a matter of style.

      Instead post hands to see where you might not be aggressive enough and try to fix the actual problems with your game.
    • ukcoolcat
      ukcoolcat
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 167
      imo stats are a little over emphasised, the main factor is finding a style that suits you, not try to play to stats because people say that's how you should play.

      i'm unable to play an overly aggressive style, my play is more laggy, and i'm happy with that, but i play fr, maybe if i were to change to 6max i'd have to adjust my style, but as i don't intend to do that i'm happy.
    • firsttsunami
      firsttsunami
      Black
      Joined: 23.01.2006 Posts: 32,997
      just to judge your game by stats is of course wrong and i don't wanna question that there might be guys out there that have been winning over a decent samplesize with just 1.5 AF but the thing is that they could have won more by playing more aggressively. you certainly have limit values for each value and as i already mentioned i don't doubt that players that have been playing with stats beyond the recommended ones can't be winning player but a guy with 1.3 is definitely missing valuebets on the river or calls down too liberally and is very likely to have leaks.

      The Total Post-flop AF in a loose-passive game should be between 2.3 and 2.8, and in aggressive LAG games between 2.0 and 2.3.

      that's what the following article tells:

      Short-handed Stats - Recommendations for Small Stakes Hold'em

      But i think these values are outdated as the games have become more aggressive and the WTS has increased from around 37 38 to around 40. a higher WTS leads to a lower AF as you call down more and that decreases the AF.

      i would say a good AF lie between 1.8 - ~2.4 / 2.5

      but i'm not quite certain about the appropiate limitations.
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      A lot of players have moved off Agression Factor and onto Aggression Frequency.

      The problem with AF is it takes thousands of hands to converge and actually means different things based on other stats. (VPIP for one).

      In other words a 25/17/1.5 is a fairly passive TAG but a 60/10/1.2 is insanely aggressive postflop.

      I agree with firsttsunami and Terrorblade here though. There are winning players with 1.6AF and there are winning players with 2.2AF. Just like there are winning players with 37% WTSD and some with 44% WTSD.

      Don't play to get your stats to look a certain way, that's a surefire road to becoming a very mediocre TAG. Understanding why you do what you do pre and postflop and developing logical and good thought process is far more important, the stats will come with time.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by Boomer2k10
      A lot of players have moved off Agression Factor and onto Aggression Frequency.

      The problem with AF is it takes thousands of hands to converge and actually means different things based on other stats. (VPIP for one).

      In other words a 25/17/1.5 is a fairly passive TAG but a 60/10/1.2 is insanely aggressive postflop.

      I agree with firsttsunami and Terrorblade here though. There are winning players with 1.6AF and there are winning players with 2.2AF. Just like there are winning players with 37% WTSD and some with 44% WTSD.

      Don't play to get your stats to look a certain way, that's a surefire road to becoming a very mediocre TAG. Understanding why you do what you do pre and postflop and developing logical and good thought process is far more important, the stats will come with time.
      solid post imo. Also killed the chat so must be definitive! :f_biggrin:
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Originally posted by Ribbo

      solid post imo. Also killed the chat so must be definitive! :f_biggrin:
      To be fair it was a necro'd thread anyway and I could just have Wall O' Texed everyone to sleep :s_cool:
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by Boomer2k10
      Originally posted by Ribbo

      solid post imo. Also killed the chat so must be definitive! :f_biggrin:
      To be fair it was a necro'd thread anyway and I could just have Wall O' Texed everyone to sleep :s_cool:
      For a proper WALLOFTEXT try sportbetting! Ribbo's sports betting thread.
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Most high winning midstake LAGGs I know dont have that high AF (mostly around 1,8) actually and very few have WTSD of 40+. I just cant imagine a 35/27 guy having 2,4 AF, to me that would be a very big spew
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Originally posted by Dawnfall26
      Most high winning midstake LAGGs I know dont have that high AF (mostly around 1,8) actually and very few have WTSD of 40+. I just cant imagine a 35/27 guy having 2,4 AF, to me that would be a very big spew
      Agree wholeheartedly

      Tbh if your AF is over 2 and you don't spew postflop it's usually a result of being tight preflop (Stronger hands post) or you have a low WTSD.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I wouldn't pay any money for fashionable stats. It is ok to have stats which are unusual. However, you should have an idea why your stats are different from other serious players.

      Some stats are social stats. They depend on your opponents, not just you. If Jennifer Harman played in your games, her stats should be different from her stats in her normal high stakes LHE games, even if she made no changes to exploit your opponents. If players limp in front of you instead of raising/folding, that changes your opportunities and thus your stats.

      Some stats are linked to others. As people have pointed out, being looser preflop means that your aggression factor should go down postflop since you will have more bluff-catching hands rather than just ones you are semibluffing or betting for value.

      You should consider when you are playing differently from others. If the decisions are close, then it doesn't matter much, but try to make sure you aren't missing times when aggression is more profitable, but uncomfortable to you.
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      My AF is personally around 0.5 and I think that is the most profitable way to play fixed limit
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      My AF is personally around 0.5 and I think that is the most profitable way to play fixed limit
      Soulreader an advantage? Or just play lots of dudes who really aren't?
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      My AF is personally around 0.5 and I think that is the most profitable way to play fixed limit
      Hi, can u explain? :D