Acceptable Loss in Blinds?

    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      Hi all,

      What do we expect to lose in the SB and BB in SSS? Obviously we can never be winners in the blinds over any significant sample size, but a ballpark figure of what we should be aiming for would be nice to have.

      Currently i'm at -20bb/100 and -45bb/100 in the SB and BB respectively, I think I may need to loosen the BB stats up a bit, incorperating more resteals into my range, and more importantly, more re-resteals with mid-high aces.

      I'm quite confident in the SB, but i'm sure that -20bb/100 can be improved upon somehow.

      I look forward to everyone's thoughts on this subject.
  • 11 replies
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      This is mine:


      My resteal% is 14-15 so even with that I am losing

      Though it is a 5k sample so there is still 10-15% sample error, I think then the range of losing on blinds is:
      BB -> between 18-26bb/100
      SB -> between 30 - 38bb/100
    • pablojavier
      pablojavier
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2008 Posts: 2,320
      gerv, where do you play? which level of blinds?

      I don`t understand, I play much more looser cause is is needed in nl100 i thnk, but your winrate is spectacular

      Do you see any leak here?









      Thanks
    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      Nice looking stats Gerv, what limits is that for?

      Looking at my stats vs yours, I think we're pretty similar in the SB, with similar results (yay!), although you're ever so slightly looser than me.

      The BB however, is another story. You seem to be overall much more agressive preflop than me. You are raising more, cold calling more, and 3betting more than I am. I can understand the 3bets (i'm aware I need to resteal more), but i'm not too sure about the cc's and raises. Are you stealing a lot of limped pots with a raise with marginal hands? What sort of cards are you cold calling with? PPs and suited aces? How are you playing your hands postflop in unraised pots? Do you only play 2pair+ or are you bluffing often to steal the pot?

      Also looks like you're limping and raising a very wide range on the BU. I use SC pushes, as well as stealing with ATC against tight blinds, but my stats are nowhere near as loose as yours. To me it looks like your BU play is definately very strong, and if this is what good SSS BU stats look like, I certainly have a long way to go. Any advice you could give me? I assume you're limping a lot of PPs, Suited Aces, maybe even Suited Connectors and One-Gappers?

      Sorry for so many questions, but i'm just drooling over your stats, would love to be able to sustain 4bb/100 using SSS, as the moment i'm running close to breakeven over 800k hands (obviously doing well with rakeback). I think i'll have another look at some of your vids to see if I can pick up some pointers, could you recommend any specific ones for LP play? (Hmm...just had a look and realised there is only 1 video from you in there, I could have sworn i've watched more than 1, oh well, i'll watch it again ;) )

      Thanks for your help so far, look forward to hearing more.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      It's ok for asking many questions :)

      I digged through my database and this was the largest sample I could find and therefore found the most trustworthy/reliable. Though 40k hands is by nomeans a sample.

      To start of with xponentx:

      what limits is that for?
      That's during my Silver coachings so 50NL mainly with some 100NL in the background

      The BB however, ________ often to steal the pot?
      Sometimes I 24table for 45 min. or so to get those VPPs (long tem goal) so like 50% of this 40k sample is done by 24tabling while the other 20k is done by 6tabling Coachings.

      First when I only played exclusively SSS, I played around 10/9 at most - I was dissapointed but that's imo useless since I was tableselecting very well and increasing VPIP/PFR was not really necessary because I got a payout after all against Fish :)

      Vs Steal on SB:
      Fold 85%, Call 1%, 3-bet 14%

      Vs steal on BB
      Fold 78%, call 7%, 3bet 15%


      I think the calls has to do with my mixing up play. People tend to minraise BTN/SB (True story) against your BB. remember they do this with as big as a 50% range and therefore their range is weak. You can 3bet risking 7bb to win 3.5bb uncontested; I do that frequently with anything that looks pretty

      I also call and c/R on a BTN cBet or delay c/R when he barrels a lot depending on stack sizes, tendencies and board texture.

      I think because I play BSS now, I see more things to attack weakness with SSS. So basically it is pure raw aggression combined with hand reading despite the fact that we play mostly the Turn & Flop/.

      I solely hate SC pushes because SC pushes are only +EV because Folding would be worser. Stealing normally, outplay your opponent is more +++EV imo. Ofcourse the junk52 hands like A:h2, K:d4 - I will push against fish who almost never fold their blinds.

      Concerning Limp, I limp 1% BTN and 3% SB - not that much :) my gap of 1% is due the call of the blinds I think

      I also reformed from an ultra laggo stealer (>60% ATS or sth lke that) to a more balanced and solid 36% ATS (23 CO, 44 BTN, 49 SB)
      The difference is that I dropped out all Junk52 hands against opponents who might play a little bit too much against me or just flatcall and stuff. Equitywise and playabilitywise: junk52 hands are SC push material but once again I hate that because it is at best like 1bb+ per hand but it can easily be -3bb per hand long term as iN EV.

      Concerning videos :P I have Dutch videos for you but there will be a beginners series coming up for the English done by me this week.

      In the meantime, the Silver coaching is always available for you (it is fun as well since we have so many small talks)


      Back to Pablojavier, ola (if you are Spanish)

      I play at 50NL Stars during my silver coachings and that's what you see in the screenshot since that's the biggest sample I had in my DB concerning SSS.

      Seeing leaks in Statistics for Advanced players is next to impossible opposed to BSS. I believe we SSS players play against the opponents 24/7 so we anticipate heavily on the action. Therefore in the end your stats become sort of average % of all those actions you have done.

      I also do not understand this:
      I play much more looser cause is is needed in nl100 i think


      Do not see this as flaming or whatsoever but in order to do something solid (Playing looser) you have to have a fundamental understanding of why you are going to play looser.

      I am fine playing 10/9 if people are constantly paying me off. I am fine if in the long run people are spewing against me because I'm playing 15/14 or sth like that with the risk that sometimes I will shove too marginal hands against certain opponents.

      In the end I think the looser you are, the higher your variance will be hence the more #hands you need to see your REAL winrate.

      Last but not least, keep tableselecting guys ;) Avg 14 VPIP tables suck, Avg 31 tables is TikTok $$$$! :]


      - Gerv
    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      Thanks Gerv, lots of good info there, i'll be taking some of it on board for sure.

      Originally posted by Gerv
      In the meantime, the Silver coaching is always available for you (it is fun as well since we have so many small talks)
      I think that's where I got confused, I attended some of your coachings when I lived in Europe. Kinda hard timing-wise now that i'm back home in Aus though.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Aus is +6 right :( ? so thats 01:00 :D ?
    • pablojavier
      pablojavier
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2008 Posts: 2,320
      really good explanations of xponentx question, and i dont take as flaming, i want to learn and every piece of advise is good for me

      thanks, i will be posting all my question in English sss forum, cause in the spanish community there aren´t coaches that answers the question like xponentx or myself

      muchas gracias (thanks)


      pd.

      About defendig the blinds passive, it is a movement that i am adding to my game nowadays, and i have some question about some hands


      ex: sb steal=40%, i should resteal with a large range, but when is better to call and when is better to raise?

      for ex, i like 3betting hands like A8+, KJ+, 22+ cause they have good equity vs his calling range imo, but with hands like KT, QJ, JT, T9, i usually called to outplay him postflop... i usually use floating, you think it is the best line? in rags boards, do you think it is better raising cbet (i think so)? for example boards J high+ are good spots imo to float cause his wide range rarely have TP+

      Also it is necesary to balance the game, and also call sometimes with premiums am i right?

      And a big problem, when a villan mini raises from btn, and you flat called, you played fit or fold? What do you do with TP weak kicker, pot control? raise cbet? call if villain is aggressive?

      It i really difficult for me to play OOP with marginal hands, or wet boards, can u give any piece of advice to improve this movements on my game?

      thanks

      pd. sory for the large amount of questions
    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Aus is +6 right :( ? so thats 01:00 :D ?
      I wish, GMT +10 :tongue:
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Against <2.5bb raises I mix it up, for 3bb raises with effective stacks around 21, I just jam it all-in (bluffs and equityhands)

      Never éver call a raise without having a solid plan based on statistics of Villain, in the end you will fit/fold which is too weak.

      It is much easier to play IP (SB vs BB) but OOP can have some c/R momentums (if pot is small I rarely c/RAI unless i know villain can make a mistake by calling to light or folding 99% of his range)

      But back to preflop, when to call or when to raise depends heavily on players further tendencies namely: cBet%, callingrange preflop against your shove etc.
      You want to get as much value out of this sucker who minraises. If you resteal against a minraise you can win 3.5bbb uncontested.

      If you call he will make a 3bb cBet which makes the pot 10bb. Knowing his range is weak (40%), he will fold a lot to your c/R and stuff

      In the end I cannot explain everything in one post, what I will do is make a note of this and probably release it in a video although some plays are read and gameflow dependent despite the fact that I 24table sometimes
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      To illustrate some examples:

      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop | saw showdown

      Gerv (BB) ($10.25)
      UTG ($14.30)
      MP1 ($62.05)
      MP2 ($10.80)
      CO ($10)
      Button ($7.70)
      SB ($56.95)

      Preflop: Gerv is BB with 9, 5
      5 folds, SB bets $0.75, Gerv calls $0.50

      Flop: ($2) 9, A, 2 (2 players)
      SB checks, Gerv bets $1.50, 1 fold

      Total pot: $2
      Main pot: $2 won by Gerv

      Results:
      Gerv had 9, 5.
      Outcome: Gerv won $3.40

      SB plays a breakeven 15/9 style on 9k hands, his steal SB is 39%, cBet% 53%, WTSD 32%, c/R 11%, AFq 36%, AF 3.2, fold to 3bet around 65%

      3bet preflop is possible but giving him the chance of giving me more money (questionable due 53% cBet) postflop gives me more money.

      Regardless whether he checked the Flop or cBet, I would attack it. Now it was simple, he checks, I bet and he folds.
      If he cBetted like $1.25-1.5 I would raise to $4-$4.25, that's what I normally would do with AK/AQ/AJ on this dry board.

      --


      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop | saw showdown

      MP2 ($10)
      CO ($18.75)
      Button ($9.45)
      SB ($31.85)
      Gerv (BB) ($12.25)
      UTG ($9.25)
      MP1 ($49.25)

      Preflop: Gerv is BB with 4, 6
      5 folds, SB bets $0.75, Gerv calls $0.50

      Flop: ($2) 9, 4, 3 (2 players)
      SB checks, Gerv bets $1.50, SB calls $1.50

      Turn: ($5) T (2 players)
      SB checks, Gerv bets $2.50, 1 fold

      Total pot: $5
      Main pot: $5 won by Gerv

      Results:
      Gerv had 4, 6.
      Outcome: Gerv won $7.30

      Villain is a 22/7 losing regular over 16.5k hands, steals 20% SB.
      AF 2.7, AFq 33%, cBEt% 62, WTSD 27%, WWSF 43%, c/R 3%, fold to 3bet 45%

      3bet pre is possible but imo this is an auto call with anything that looks suited (look at my stacksize)

      Flop he checks so I bet 24/7 year in, year out. Turn is interesting and I bet 1/2 pot because I was setting up a bluffrivershove. $3 would have been a little better because that looks like a genuine 2/3 bet.

      If he called, I put him on 9x,QJ, random Flushdraws, 56, A2,A5ish hands so finishing the riverjob by shoving would be decent (That's why i made it 2,50 I think because I would shove $7 into $10 instead of $6.5 into $11)
    • pablojavier
      pablojavier
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2008 Posts: 2,320
      thanks gerv, easy play hand 1

      hand2. Good floating, but shove river? Do u think u are ahead with almost bottom pair? I think you see a lot of FE equity in that movement, in which stats do u see that FE?

      and OOP? ex, raise 2bb CO or BTN, any example?

      muchas gracias

      saludos