Overbets: Putting the "No" back into "No limit".

    • Catinthewall
      Catinthewall
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.09.2009 Posts: 50
      From all I've read in the poker strategy from this site, there's nothing dealing with overbets, either how to react to them, or when they're profitable to dish out.
      Pretty much the only thing different for standard TAG play between NL and PL is preflop first raise is limited to 3.5+1 bb, rather than 4+1 bb.
      Preflop, usually anything more than 4+1 is a big flashing warning sign, so they're simply not profitable to play against without the nuts, unless you're dealing with a maniac on tilt.

      beyond that, I'm not experienced to say. Anyone care to share their opinions on how to deal with postflop overbets, and if it's ever worth making yourself?

      Anyone with enough hand history to analyze, what does average fold to overbet% look like?
  • 6 replies
    • Berzerger
      Berzerger
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 910
      Originally posted by Catinthewall
      From all I've read in the poker strategy from this site, there's nothing dealing with overbets, either how to react to them, or when they're profitable to dish out.
      There are no specific articles on overbetting because it's situation dependent, doesn't happen too often and is usually bad play. By overbetting you're risking to lose more than you opt to win, so unless you have the (almost) nuts it doesn't even make sense. And even if you do, a potsize bet already guarantees max protection, so by overbetting you're saying "hey, look at me, I got a strong hand and I want to get it in! Will you be the sucker who pays me off?"

      Originally posted by CatinthewallPretty much the only thing different for standard TAG play between NL and PL is preflop first raise is limited to 3.5+1 bb, rather than 4+1 bb.
      Preflop, usually anything more than 4+1 is a big flashing warning sign, so they're simply not profitable to play against without the nuts, unless you're dealing with a maniac on tilt.
      That's what the book says. Nevertheless 3.5bb or even 3bb is an acceptable amount to raise first-in, and many good players do it because they know they'll make their money post-flop. If you fold to any raise bigger than 4bb without AA/KK, you should really reconsider your approach.

      About pre-flop action, good short stacks will often re-steal all-in, especially vs. CO and BU. Say you're on the button, you have ATs and you raise 3bb first-in. A 20bb shortie in the big blind pushes over you. Betting 20 to win 3.5, it's a clear overbet, but it allows them to close the action. Their 3bet range is something like 12%. Bad SS players occasionally resteal too, but they don't pick their spots carefully. Don't automatically call, he could have a pocket pair, but he could as well have you dominated. After a hundred hands or so you notice how a person plays, how good he is approximately, and whether it is worth investing money against him in a particular spot. That's something you have to practice yourself, there's no all round guide on how to read people.

      Originally posted by CatinthewallAnyone with enough hand history to analyze, what does average fold to overbet% look like?
      Never even heard of such stat, and I doubt anyone uses it...
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      overbets preflop are stongly unadvisable for the simple reason that it is very hard to balance your lines. If you do it only with monsters well you will soon be spotted and will not get much from them otherwise you risk to lose more than necessary with marginal hands etc..

      post flop is a different story.

      I have seen on some PS videos coaches avising overbets. Overbets are generally used by fish as a bluff. lets say for a flsuh draw that do not complete for example. It is good to use over bets for example if you have a monster on a board that could show this kind of possible hands.

      for example you have AA


      you are OOP (UTG).

      you raise, MP 3 bet, you call

      flop Kh8hAd

      you check, MP bet, you call

      turn 6d

      you cehck, MP bet you call

      river 2c

      you overbet (2 or 3x pot)

      could be interpreted as a draw that did not complete.

      however by doing this you could miss some value on the turn.
    • dicekeyrollz
      dicekeyrollz
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2010 Posts: 74
      Some fish do pay you off when you make exorbitant bets like that. However, those same fish also make those overbets, expecting you to think it's a bluff. I've been that idiot before and overbets and more often than not, it's a money-bleeder.
    • Fagin
      Fagin
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 544
      In my experience overbets on either the flop or river are 2 pair or better about 80% of the time (frequently bottom 2), the rest of the time its air or a draw/missed draw.

      I have seem some overbets on the turn which I have read to be TPTK protecting against flush draws or nut flush draws getting rid of TPTK / 2 pair type hands.

      The best guide is knowledge of the individual player and plenty of experience at reading situations (combined with some errors in calling these bets of course). There is no hard and fast rule for calling or raising these bets just gut instinct based on experience.

      I can guarantee that every player, even the best, will read some of these situations wrongly sometimes, it happens, and if you can't handle caling with what might be a worse hand then fold. You will sometimes fold the best hand but your varience will be less too.
    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      I think one place, where overbets are useful, is when you have a strong hand (lets say nut straight). Pot is 10 $ on the river and you both have 40 $ left. If you think, that the opponent wants to see SD, but doesnt raise (has something like top two), you can overbet (lets say 20$). Ofcourse history is also important and it is quite hard to balance this.
      It works well against fishes but is also good against regulars.
      Ofcourse if you see a fish, who calls your AI in that point (40 into 10) with some shitty hand, you should do it all day long with weaker hands also. though you dont encounter these players too much.

      Some good examples are in NL BSS videos also (NL100 and up).
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Overbets should be done when your opponents hand is face up. Not gonna explain why because i'm bastard.