Reacting to limp/minraises in push fold

    • elhh82
      elhh82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      These moves are really annoying and very often results in you having to give up pushing a pretty good hand. What kind of general assumptions do you make about payers who make these moves?

      Would it be correct for me to assume that:

      a) if i think he plays limpfold or minraise fold a lot, i should just count him as dead money, and push anyway

      b) if i think he will call anything, then i should just assume that he has pushed already, and i should only continue with hands i call with and push over him.
  • 7 replies
    • Bezeal
      Bezeal
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 26
      I have a problem with these situations as well. So far i have followed the 4 charts from the bronze strategy zone, and i will spend time on the ICM trainer when i get the time.

      But as of now, i use the charts and lay down a hand, which can only be pushed when you are first-in. I am sure there are better ways to play, but i need more experience in this phase.
    • pinnryder
      pinnryder
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.11.2009 Posts: 597
      I have seen it pretty often too. It depends how the players played before if they were quite active I push anyway. If they call a bit loose I normally tighten up a little when I have less chips than them if I have them covered I'm happy to push.
      Of course it depends on the limper too but normally a limp in the push/fold stage is really weak and only occasionaly you will run into a monster.
      Often I see players minraising trying to steal the blinds especially when the blinds are very high (even with a limper).

      To summ it up:
      If I have the minraiser covered I generally push with a hand that is worth pushing if I have less chips I am more carefull and wait for a better hand or a better situation..
    • nibbana
      nibbana
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      If someone was pushing every SB you'd find it easy to react to right ?

      You'd just find the right range to be calling with, so if someone is always limping or minraising the same should apply. If it is happening EVERY time then you can treat it as him pushing. He may limp with 50% and call a push with 25% ask sngWiz what the correct range is for these parameters

      Where it would get complicated is if, for example he pushes 25%, minraises 25%, limps 25% and folds 25%.... Then you'll have some fun ;-)
    • 8979687
      8979687
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      You have the right idea with adjusting in the OP...

      If I see someone limp at higher blinds when they should be raising or folding, I first look at their stats...

      If they are on several tables and have tight stats, I assume its a trap and I move the table to a spot I can watch
      it and I see if they goto showdown and base my future choices against that player accordingly.

      If I see someone limping and they are unknown, I make a mental note. If I have time, I observe their showdown
      and how they play their hand. If I see them limp then check fold or check to the river, then I will assume that
      when they are limping it is free money. Once I shove over their limp loosely and collect the dead money, I am
      a little more careful with what range I will do it with next time as these people are usually only playing on
      one or two tables and they have time to remember what I did to them and they can call wider....

      So in summary I use stats, and I use observation, I rarely assume it is safe to super wide steal their dead money
      untill I have atleast some kind of idea of their play style. Once I have them pegged as a limper its game on and
      my stack thanks me for it.
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      when opponents are high blind limping this can be one of the most profitable times to push for us. i suggest if you are using stats to add the 'limp' stat to your HUD. this way you can see if they are limping a lot and adjust accordingly. (even possible push wider because of the dead money)

      this also helps to identify those players who are limp trapping.

      as for the MR. i treat this as a normal raise and play accordingly.
    • elhh82
      elhh82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      I was thinking. With a limper in the pot, he essentially becomes sort of like the new BB.

      So in order to factor in the extra player acting behind, i try to calculate ICM by shifting the positions.

      For example in a 5 handed pot.

      UTG 4000 folds
      CO 6000 limps
      BU 2000 folds
      SB 2000 (HERO)
      BB 2000

      So instead of putting all this in, i will swap the position, so HERO is now in BU, BB goes to SB while CO is in the BB.

      UTG 4000 folds
      CO 2000 folds
      BU 2000 (HERO)
      SB 2000
      BB 6000 limps

      Do you think this makes sense?

      I know it won't be the most accurate, but should be a good enough rough estimate? And better than assuming that there is no CO which entered the hand?
    • z4tz
      z4tz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.05.2008 Posts: 2,043
      The problem with this method elhh82 is that the range of the limper is not even close to the BB normal range.

      When i deal with limpers the most important thing i find is wether they mostly limpcall or if they limpfold because that gives us two different scenarios.
      A mostly limpfolding guy we can treat as dead money and shove even wider than normally.
      A mostly limpcalling guy we need to tighten up quite a bit depending on what hands he is limping but we can never push wide here since its like calling a push from him almost.

      Not every opponent can be categorized this way and is mixing it up even more strangely but i try to put them in these two categories as a start at least. And opponents are not only doing one of them so you have to try and adjust to a level you think seem reasonable.
      My post only deals with fish limping, not with regs that limptrap ofc where the obvious is to fold.