Finishing 1st

    • pinnryder
      pinnryder
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.11.2009 Posts: 597
      I just moved my BR to a new site and have a hard time turning a profit so far.
      I didn't play enough SnG there to have big enough sample size. I get in the money often enough so the problem isn't there but I just don't finish 1st often enough to show a profit so far.
      Mostly due to the fact that I get in the money pretty short often.
      What do you guys do to get a big enough stack so you can be aggressive once your in the money and put a lot of pressure on your opponents?
      Do you try to steal blinds more when you're short on the bubble or do you just follow ICM?
      Any advice would be much appreciated.
  • 14 replies
    • saywhat
      saywhat
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.11.2008 Posts: 253
      If you are getting itm often but are short stacked most of the time, chances are you are being to tight. You need to read some more articles and get a little more aggressive, don't just sit back and wait for A's or AK.
      Just my opinion. I currently am playing the 90plr sng and have more 1st and 2nd finishes than 3-9 finishes because i find most of the players get stupid tight and only attack with Ax hands, very easy to read.
    • pinnryder
      pinnryder
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.11.2009 Posts: 597
      My sample size so far is not that big but so far I finished ITM ~40% which is pretty decent but I'm down 15BI.
      I know it's not much but it's still annoying to loose money that way.
      Don't really know if I'm not aggressive enough. My overall AF preflop is at 3.2.
      Maybe the 27% steal attempt is not high enough? But that is overall too.
      I will take a closer look if I should be more aggressive in the late stages though, thanks for that.

      Anyone else maybe?
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hello pinnryder,

      There are a couple of articles in the silver section that may be of use to you for playing the middle stages of a SnG, namely Steals and Re-Steals.

      If you haven't already seen them then i would suggest having a look at them ad seeing if there is anything in those articles that can improve your game as well as your stack size.

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
    • elhh82
      elhh82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      also the ICM trainer, will help you a lot when the stacks get short. There are many exploitable spots on or near the bubble.

      You will get ITM a bit less, but the payoff is, you will not just crawl into the money, but rather get in with a real shot of winning it.

      For a 9 man getting 3rd returns around 1.6BI (@2.25 stakes), getting 2nd gives you 2.4BI but 1st gives you 4BI. Which is a massive boost. Its worth sacrificing every other chance of getting ITM, if you can get into a good position to finish 1st.
    • pinnryder
      pinnryder
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.11.2009 Posts: 597
      I read the articles already and am training ICM too. I guess I will just keep playing. Maybe it's due to the fact that these are turbos too..
      I guess I will try to be a bit more agressive when the stacks are short..
    • elhh82
      elhh82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      IMO the turbos at the micros are especially exploitable on the bubble.

      Many guys just have no clue how to play ICM/Nash pushes and the best part it, more than 50% of the turbo game IS push/fold

      you can also use the ICM trainer (not the light) to analyze your game. Or use http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html
    • ironmask92
      ironmask92
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      Joined: 23.10.2009 Posts: 303
      The turbo SNG's also vary for each site.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by elhh82
      For a 9 man getting 3rd returns around 1.6BI (@2.25 stakes), getting 2nd gives you 2.4BI but 1st gives you 4BI. Which is a massive boost. Its worth sacrificing every other chance of getting ITM, if you can get into a good position to finish 1st.
      No!!! At the lower/micro stakes a lot of the times, players play way too loose early game. So what results is that people will get into lots of marginal spots against each other. The person that is therefore coming out on top in these confrontations is thus going to have a huge chiplead approaching the money. We may have had no hands up to this point, and still have roughly a starting stack. If then then manage to make it in the money, this is already a huge achievement! The fact that we have a very smallc hance of making it to first place from here no longer matters.

      Basically I wouldnt' matter about these things unless you're playing really bad at the heads up stage.
    • elhh82
      elhh82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      Originally posted by elhh82
      For a 9 man getting 3rd returns around 1.6BI (@2.25 stakes), getting 2nd gives you 2.4BI but 1st gives you 4BI. Which is a massive boost. Its worth sacrificing every other chance of getting ITM, if you can get into a good position to finish 1st.
      No!!! At the lower/micro stakes a lot of the times, players play way too loose early game. So what results is that people will get into lots of marginal spots against each other. The person that is therefore coming out on top in these confrontations is thus going to have a huge chiplead approaching the money. We may have had no hands up to this point, and still have roughly a starting stack. If then then manage to make it in the money, this is already a huge achievement! The fact that we have a very smallc hance of making it to first place from here no longer matters.

      Basically I wouldnt' matter about these things unless you're playing really bad at the heads up stage.
      chenny, don't think i quite get you. In the early stages, yea we play tight, and just wait for hands.

      But i was specifically referring to the bubble/late stages. Where players just get too tight instead. It seems like OP is having this problem as well. Thus folding his way just into the money, but never having a stack to be able to do anything at all.

      Shouldn't we start getting aggressive, picking spots to push and make use of our fold equity when we get into stack sizes of ~10BB?

      Say with 5 players left, and 3 guys with about starting stacks (us being one of them), shouldn't we want to push the action, especially against our direct opponents. Instead of still continuing our early game of waiting for premium hands.

      I will protect and try to build the 1,500 chip start stack (Full Tilt) as long as possible, but once its at the 80/160 (or even 60/120). I will usually start pushing in late position.
    • AtomicReaction
      AtomicReaction
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2010 Posts: 78
      I know what really helped me in the late stages was I spent a few weeks alternating between the 9 man SNGs and the heads up tourneys. Playing just a couple of those heads up games will really give you a huge edge when you get to the first vs. second battles.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      at the lower limits we may have a rudely high ITM% as a result of our "better" strategy, but not as high a first place finish%. it doesn't matter because at the end of the day our ROI is going to be high as a result. It is still very important to play well on the bubble stages. Just saying it's not weird if you come first quite rarely
    • elhh82
      elhh82
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      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      Well i think my stats could be a consequence of my aggression in the mid-stages. I have quite a high% of first place finishes. bout 40$ of my ITM if in 1st. But my ITM is below the 40% i seem to see among the regs at $2.25.
    • elhh82
      elhh82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      I think this discussion is getting interesting. Anyway this is what my ROI/ITM spread looks like

      Win (BI) % Return
      1st 4 15.00% 60.00%
      2nd 2.4 11.00% 26.40%
      3rd 1.6 11.00% 17.60%

      ITM 37.00%
      Total ROI 4.00%

      So chenny you're saying its possibly better to play a bit safer, and aim for a much better ITM like 50%. With maybe a spread that looks like

      Win (BI) % ROI
      1st 4 5.00% 20.00%
      2nd 2.4 20.00% 48.00%
      3rd 1.6 25.00% 40.00%

      ITM 50.00%
      Total ROI 8.00%

      Here a simple calculator i made, just plug in the desired % in each placing to get the values
      http://depositfiles.com/files/cxtcupj30
    • nibbana
      nibbana
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      I think the best comparison would be the ratio 4th:3rd and 5th:3rd. Doubling up/Stealing blinds in a marginal spot doesn't guarantee you 1st place is the theme I guess...