6-max, When acceptable Non SD losses (BB/100) become non acceptable?

    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Ok so its nothing new, we all know alot of winning players have negative non show down winning and are constantly told "dont worry about it, its fine". But at the end of the day improving this and lossing less here can result in higher win rates.
      My question is, for the NLHE 6-max format what is an acceptable amount to be lossing (BB/100) for your Non SD winnings and at what point does lossing more than you should come into play? If you're going to just reply with "i dont know" or "it doesnt matter" then dont bother replying. I would like to hear from people who actually want to discuss this, have some constuctive input.

      Many thanks.
  • 16 replies
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      that entirely depends on your showdown winnings. if you can keep up a 10bb/100 winrate with a redline thats negative then it's all good.
      Im assuming though, that you ask because you want a higher winrate in which case you should just try to barrel more scarecards etc. noone decides what's acceptable and everyone has very very different red/blue rates.

      a horrible redline is a good indicator that you have something you can improve on though, so now that you know you have this leak there's no reason not to try plug it.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Pay more attention to your opponent tendencies and try to exploit em better based on that pick spots to cbet more carefully, have a plan when you gonna do two/three barrels etc. And most importantly - value bet a ton. As your red line increase your blue line will decrease a bit too so don't expect that if your NSD line increase by few bb that your overall profits will increase by same amount, or at all.
      Oh and don't try to be lose aggressive mofo just because it's "cool", nits can have sick red lines as well. ;) Not that it matters or something.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Ok so there is no way of increasing the red line without the blue diping?

      What i meant is, im running at 7BB/100 atm. But my redline is aprox -4BB/100.

      I guess what i was getting at is at what point are you losing to much in your red line? Or does it not matter if your winning a shite load at show down? ie: say you lost 10BB/100 at NSD would it still be ok if you still won 7BB/100. I hope you understand abit more what im asking?
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
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      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      As your red line increase your blue line will decrease a bit too so don't expect that if your NSD line increase by few bb that your overall profits will increase by same amount, or at all.
      No not atall. But could you expect if it raised by say 1.5BB/100 or 2BB/100 for your winrate to increase by say 0.50BB/100?

      I like my winrate but im currious as if increasing my redline will increase my win rate atall (no matter how slight it may be.
    • gavinonymous
      gavinonymous
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,146
      In my short experience I found that there's a balance between showdown and no showdown winnings (they are related by game play)

      the more you 3 barrel, bluff, raise cbets and value bet the river (esp when no worse hand can call) the higher the redline goes, but also your blue line will go down accordingly as you get called/sucked out etc..

      when my redline is trending negative I'm winning more showdowns
      when my redline is trending positive, I'm breakeven in showdowns.

      somewhere in between there's a balance region. It depends a lot on your game, sample size, table selection (e.g, playing calling stations is not good for your redline)

      if you can keep all these variables constant then I think redline analysis can help plug leaks - in the long run, i think it's just a matter of balance.

      my $0.02
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      i'd guess that at NL50, about -5/100 means you have leaks.

      i 16-tabled NL50SH for a while playing somewhat straight-forward and folding a lot with marginal hands like pps and A high when i miss the flop, and after 75k hands my nonSD winnings were at -3 or 3.5bb/100.

      actually i'll juet post a graph, make of it whatever you like:
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Yeah i'd say thats about -3.5/100.

      Where would you suggest to start looking for leaks in regards to the red line? I get the impression that looking for spots where i stay in hands to long before folding or spots/patterns of where bluffs are raised/called and then given up?
    • gavinonymous
      gavinonymous
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,146
      for me it really depends on the table and your position on fish/tags.

      IP against fish my redline goes down
      IP against tags my redline goes up

      if my table has huge WTSD then redline can't really go up so much.

      it's really hard to tell - for leaks I would analyze and post hands/coaching rather than read too much into the redline.

      like I said, if I play super aggressive vs. tags - redline goes up but blueline stays around even. if I play aggressive vs. fish - redline goes down but blueline goes up.

      edit: I'd also take a close look at my play in the blinds and stealing - over the long run a lot of tiny pots can add up.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      So i guess some of the things that effect the red line are not in our controle then. Where as some are. The wierd thing is my Full-Ring red line is break even. Where as my 6-max red line is negative
    • Magijec
      Magijec
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2007 Posts: 91
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      So i guess some of the things that effect the red line are not in our controle then. Where as some are. The wierd thing is my Full-Ring red line is break even. Where as my 6-max red line is negative
      maybe thats because in SH you are in blinds more often
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Originally posted by Magijec
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      So i guess some of the things that effect the red line are not in our controle then. Where as some are. The wierd thing is my Full-Ring red line is break even. Where as my 6-max red line is negative
      maybe thats because in SH you are in blinds more often
      Yeah but My ATT to steal is alot higher in 6-max, so you'd thing that's cancle the fact your in the blinds more out.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      @ Kruppe: Was that 16 tabling on Full-Tilt? How do you manage that playing SH? I mean 16 tabling FR is easy, but SH thats pritty impressive, the action must be so fast, do you play a nitty game pre-flop or something?
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      @ Kruppe: Was that 16 tabling on Full-Tilt? How do you manage that playing SH? I mean 16 tabling FR is easy, but SH thats pritty impressive, the action must be so fast, do you play a nitty game pre-flop or something?
      it was fun, like a video game. it takes concentratin/right frame of mind to not keep timing out on several tables. yeah, it was ftp. i started out playing something retarded like 27/20, and i was often HU on a couple of tables :D after a while i changed it to 23/18 or something with about 6% 3bet, can't quite remember.
    • gavinonymous
      gavinonymous
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      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,146
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      Originally posted by Magijec
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      So i guess some of the things that effect the red line are not in our controle then. Where as some are. The wierd thing is my Full-Ring red line is break even. Where as my 6-max red line is negative
      maybe thats because in SH you are in blinds more often
      Yeah but My ATT to steal is alot higher in 6-max, so you'd thing that's cancle the fact your in the blinds more out.
      What's your % check-raise on the flop and turn?
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
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      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      flop: 7.27%, turn: 6.16%
    • gavinonymous
      gavinonymous
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      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,146
      Originally posted by PocketAcesJohn
      flop: 7.27%, turn: 6.16%
      ok, nm that :) maybe you are being bluffed off more hands than you think? that would make a redline go down a lot.