One pair hands OOP

    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Could use some advise on this matter. I find it quite difficult to play a weak hand OOP, and could use some guidelines on this matter. How to play them on dry boards, connected boards and HU and mulitway pots. I got an example here. Didn't like the turn check alot, since there was draw possibilities out there, but still didn't want to get stacked off here. Since they both checked behind on the turn, I thought I could make a valuebet (was maybe a little too large), but anyway, the specific hand shouldn't be whats driving the discussion, it's more meant as an example to show where the problems are - what I could use is a few points to follow (or consider) when playing OOP with weak to semi-strong hands!


      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)       
      Position:
      Stack
      MP1:
      $4,57
      MP2:
      $17,14
      Hero:
      $9,90

      0,05/0,10 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.8 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with A:heart: , J:spade:
      3 folds, MP1 calls $0,10, MP2 calls $0,10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0,60, BB folds, MP1 calls $0,50, MP2 calls $0,50.

      Flop: ($1,90) 3:heart: , A:club: , 2:heart: (3 players)
      Hero bets $1,50, MP1 calls $1,50, MP2 calls $1,50.

      Turn: ($6,40) 3:diamond: (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

      River: ($6,40) T:spade: (3 players)
      Hero bets $4, 2 folds.

      Final Pot: $10,40

      Hope someone can give some inputs - how to get the most value when ahead, and how to lose the least amount when behind!

      Best regards,
      Mugge
  • 8 replies
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi Mugge88!

      The way you played it is the right way to play these hands imo. By playing check/call on the turn you are giving your opponents the opportunity to bluff with weaker hands (and getting value form it) and keeping the pot small (losing less) when you are up against better hands.
      Of course you are giving a freecard for possible flush and straight draws but as you said before: You don't want to play a big pot to find that out. Pot control is more important than protecting your top pair against draws. Nice play!

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Would the situation have been different if the board had been e.g. 27A rainbow and the pot had been HU? Or is it generally just a good idea to try and keep the pot small when OOP with TP hands (and of course IP too, but I often prefer to take a free showdown instead of checking the turn behind here in case I'm in doubt where I stand)?

      And thanks for the answer btw :)
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      I think with top pair hands your goal should be to win small to medium pots because in big pots one pair normally isn't that good. So pot control is a very decisive factor while playing top pair - especially out of position.
      You should try to get gold status as soon as possible because we have a nice strategy article about pot control: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/140/ :D

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      The question in no-limit is always how often you'll be ahead if you get all in. In this case, you'll probably normally be ahead against the short stack, and the deep stack depends on reads. The overlimp/call preflop strongly suggests a small pair or suited/connected hand, not a bigger ace, so you're still committed against him too probably (in a three way pot 54, 33, 22 and two pair (with 32 or a suited A3/A2 of another suit) would want to raise the flop normally, so he's probably on the flush draw or 65/64 gutshot straight draw. 54 might call because it's a bit less vulnerable than the rest, but the action says that he at least is probably drawing.)

      Whether you should go broke with top pair depends on how much money is left and how much money your opponents are putting in with worse hands primarily. All things considered, it looks safe here.

      But if you do check the turn for pot control, then betting the river probably isn't good even with downwards revised hand ranges, nothing has changed other than the flush draw not completing and folding to a raise would be very ugly unless you specifically know that your opponents will call with some worse hands and only ever raise something better than top pair with jack kicker there.
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      As I said, the hand shouldn't be what's driving the discussion, but thanks for the analysis anyway.. Regarding the river bet I will often get called by worse hands at these limits..

      @Puschkin:

      Might consider playing SSS for a little time just to get that gold status (could possibly get the points for PT + aceHUD too).. As I told you earlier I won't get the gold status at these limits playing BSS, since it's simply too many hands a day for me.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      Ah, well as a general rule, don't play top pair type hands out of position unless you can build a sufficient pot to commit while still ahead with top pair (worked out in this case because both called, one's a short stack and the other's almost certainly drawing) or your opponents are real stations who will commit with worse even in small pots. You have very little control over the growth of the pot when out of position.

      Pocket pairs and trash are the only hands that don't really suffer much when out of position. AJ, on the other hand, plays terribly. You might consider just checking and playing a small pot but isolating the short stack's a good outcome too, you need to raise to more than $0.60 for that though as the big stack will probably play his drawing hand in position for another 50 cents against two opponents, and raising more is likely to cut out too many of the hands you'd prefer the short stack to call with. Checking's the better option preflop, I think.
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Well then, thanks for the answer - gave me a few more questions :)

      If we take that I checked this pf and the same flop comes - would a PSB on the flop be the correct move then? And then what to do on the turn if both opponents called (my guess: check/call a resonable amount - reevaluating on the river)
    • rubysilesia
      rubysilesia
      Silver
      Joined: 03.07.2007 Posts: 351
      Hi mugge

      Im glad that u posted this hand. This is the type of situation where I loose most of my chips. I realized that few days ago when I was wondering what do I do wrong and why Im doing well step by step and than bang sucked. Ive read the pot control article. The concept is harder to understand than protection. I think its very important for beginners like myself to realize that u have to think twice before betting turn with TP/OP especially neer pot size OOP. I think it should be emphasized more in bronze or silver strategy articles and put in a bit simpler way then in gold is since its the kind of hands that are played very often and can cause real pain in the ass.