Need advanced help - DoN

    • goren123
      goren123
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.11.2008 Posts: 25
      Hello,
      I've recently posted here some stats regarding about 500 - 5.20$ DoN SNGs.
      Now I've managed to build up my bankroll nicely by multi-tabling the 5.20$ and 10.40$ DONs (about 25 tables).
      Now I'm having some sirious troubles at the 20.80$ level. Here's a graph of my last (and only) about 3.5k DONs (5.20$,10.40$&20.80$):

      At about 2600 tournaments, I've switched from 10.40$ to 20.80$ BI.
      As you can see, it turned very crazy and unstable which made me think again whether I play these DoNs correctly.
      ROI: 5.20$: 9%
      10.40$ 7.4%
      20.80$: 1.8% (ridiculous)
      Someone posted at the last thread I've opened stats of a DON player who gets 10% ROI with a avg buy-in higher then 20$.

      First stage of the DoN is pretty easy, mainly just playing monster hands (only AA-TT, AK, AQ - folding even AJ and KQ from late position most of the times) and limping small pocket pairs, therefore I only end up losing only about 12% of the tournaments in the 9th or 10th place (10th-4.5%, 9th-7.5%).
      As well, I end up on the bubble only about 11.5%. An average player is supposed to lose on the bubble 1/6=16.67%..
      I win the 20.80$ DoN only 53% of the times which leaves us with about 23% losing 7th/8th.

      accordingly, I assume my problem is in the last-middle stage (when everyone is sitting down at the table very short about 5BB-15BB)
      my style of play at that stage is stealing blinds very often from the small blind by either pushing all in with a decent hand or when the pot is more than 25% of my stack) or raising 2-3BB.
      pushing all-ins according to the ICM but not exactly, more tightened up - especially when 7 players are left. Is it correct for example not to push all-in with KJs suited from the middle position with 9BB with 9 players at the table?

      First of all, thank you very much for dedicating your time reading this. I realy hope that you have any tips for me that would help me increase my ROI% because I know it is possible.

      Thanks in advance,
      Guy Goren.
  • 12 replies
    • pinnryder
      pinnryder
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.11.2009 Posts: 597
      Originally posted by goren123
      Is it correct for example not to push all-in with KJs suited from the middle position with 9BB with 9 players at the table?
      I don't really like this myself, maybe sometimes I just don't have the guts to do it ;)

      I'm not a DON player myself but I guess players are not gambling that much anymore and playing quite tight at the 20$ and therefore in the late stages everyone is really short. So maybe it's just variance at the moment but I would be happy with any positive ROI at any level..
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      I can't really comment specifically for the limits you are playing as I've never been that far with dons but with regard to pushing all in - Your decision should be based on the stack sizes to your left.

      I would be pushing a massive range in to players with like 2k chips or there abouts, people who feel safe with their stack and don't need to defend too light, depending on the table and the blinds this could be 1500 chips or whatever.

      Obviously big stacks will often call loose and shorties feel the need to gamble to stay in so the average stacks should be your targets.

      KJs from mp with 9bbs is an easy shove for me provided there's not a big stacked maniac still to act. You will be ahead of a lot of donk calling ranges and only really need to worry about being called with a monster but then that is always a problem regardless of what you push with. Whether or not that is a correct push in ICM terms I don't know.

      It may be worth playing fewer tables at the $20 limit so you can read more in to the players at different tables - This may help in push/fold. I played 20 tables at a time of the $1.10's and I know I didn't have time to really consider stack sizes, it was more of a robotic push/fold game which may not be enough for the $20 level.

      Hope this helps :)
    • Vargan
      Vargan
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 565
      Your ROI will drop when your go to the next level because the game is tougher. Your ROI will also drop further when you mass multi table.

      What is your hourly rate ($/h) at the $5's $10's and $20's?

      Protip: get coached. :f_cool:
    • akrammon
      akrammon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.05.2009 Posts: 3,142
      I have only played like 130 DoNs so far, and on lower limits, and I have founds some crazy-ass calls with Axo from BB even from normal stacks... I guess it all depends on the others, plus if you raised in one of the previous hands, just muck the KJ - they are more likely to call. I guess.

      However, I'd like to ask a question from you mate: after how much DoNs did you approximately have your ROI on 9% on $5,20? I mean, of course people get variance all the time, but after how many DoNs could you more or less say that "yey man, my ROI is more-or less stable"? Thanks a lot! Mine is only like 6%, but only played like 130 games, also got pretty unlucky in the last ~20. Anyways, thanks for the answer.
    • goren123
      goren123
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.11.2008 Posts: 25
      Thank you all for your replies.

      KJs from mp with 9bbs is an easy shove for me provided there's not a big stacked maniac still to act. You will be ahead of a lot of donk calling ranges and only really need to worry about being called with a monster but then that is always a problem regardless of what you push with. Whether or not that is a correct push in ICM terms I don't know.

      If for example, you have 900 chips left, the blinds are 50/100. You are sitting down at the middle position holding these KJs. 8 player in the table means 100+50+8*10=230 chips in the pot. You are in the middle position so let's assume none of the player ahead of you is a maniac. Would you still push 900 chips for the chance of getting only 230 chips? I wouldn't. I guess mostly because there will be many better places to steal from in the future and keep surviving the tournament (that's what it all about). Paying the blinds doesn't hurt your stack dramatically in my opinon - so you have many hands to see, especially if the blinds just went up.

      I can't really comment specifically for the limits you are playing as I've never been that far with dons but with regard to pushing all in - Your decision should be based on the stack sizes to your left.

      Completely agree with that. Well It was hard for me to conclude my all strategy in a short thread. But when pushing from the middle position, you will have most of the times all kinds of players ahead of you. I find it more important to look at the players for my left when pushing from late position or when someone has limped, I immediately check his VPIP when I would like to push a marginal hand.

      What is your hourly rate ($/h) at the $5's $10's and $20's?

      5.20$: 11.81 $/Hr (in the beginning I multi-tabled less - that's an average & I guess I played worse there because I've tried diffrent types of games)
      10.40$: 22.76 $/Hr
      On top of that, you have to take into considiration that when I play a short session (1-2 hours) that's decreasing my hourly rate since I play less tournaments at the end of the session. I hope I will soon find the "perfect" way to play these tournament and then I will play longer sessions (4-5 Hrs) and maximize my hourly rate at the 20.80$ DoN and maybe even some 52$.


      However, I'd like to ask a question from you mate: after how much DoNs did you approximately have your ROI on 9% on $5,20? I mean, of course people get variance all the time, but after how many DoNs could you more or less say that "yey man, my ROI is more-or less stable"? Thanks a lot! Mine is only like 6%, but only played like 130 games, also got pretty unlucky in the last ~20. Anyways, thanks for the answer.

      I've played 1897 5.20$ DoN SNGs.
    • funktor
      funktor
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.08.2008 Posts: 922
      I would not be worried that much... my first 500 $20 DoNs were break even, second 500 I played with 10% ROI, finishing with about 5% after 1000.

      I examined some other forums and players noted that on this level you can expect breakeven streaks up to 1000 DoNs.... I would not be concered much, double check the strategy for satellites and keep playing.

      Anything above 5% would be great achievement on $20 level.

      Regards

      Funktor
    • steIIstuI
      steIIstuI
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,587
      I'm not at the 20$ yet, just at 10$. I see that the 10s are the same as the 5s, but my ROI is 20% at the 10$ and 11% at the 5$.

      My advice is to play less tables at the same time until you win constantly, and then play your normal.
    • funktor
      funktor
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.08.2008 Posts: 922
      How may SNGs have you played? Do you have at least 2000? Otherwise it is not reasonable think about ROI.

      For 500 there will be error in your winrate about +-9% (95% confidence)
      For 1000 there will be error in your winrate about +-6% (95% confidence)
      For 5000 there will be error in your winrate about +-2.5% (95% confidence)

      Funktor
    • qwery1
      qwery1
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2008 Posts: 356
      Hi Goren,

      we can do sweet session sometimes or discuss some hands, I sended you message in community.

      qwery1
    • ByronVW
      ByronVW
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2008 Posts: 37
      A lot of people have mentioned playing less tables Goren, this is the trick. It is a lot harder at $20 DoN's as majority of the players you will be playing are regulars and know the strategy and rules that come with the different stages of DoN's

      I've actually played a few games against you at PS. You really need to be aware of stack sizes and players you play against regularly. I am winning more these days because, for lack of a better way of putting this, I am getting shown respect at tables for my consisten wins. My game is incredibly tight and some of the hands I fold I would never do in a million years, but the strategy is different in DoN's and have had to adjust my game according (based on the stats below, this sort of can be confirmed)

      This week I took them really seriously and have played rougthly 100 with 5 tables open for reads. It took me roughtly 40 DoN's before I found a technique that results in better profitability. So the stats below without the 40 tables would be alarmingly high.

      My ROI is 30.5% with a proft of roughly $650. I will post some charts tonight.

      GL with your quest to make DoN profitable. I am taking them really seriously and now solely play DoN's, if all goes well, could become my profession LOL. See you at the tables Goren and all the best man
    • sk345di
      sk345di
      Global
      Joined: 07.05.2009 Posts: 225
      Play less tables to develop reads or table select well. There are more good regulars at the 20 level which leads to smaller ROI and bigger variance. Although i think 5% roi is achievable for the amount of tables you play you will need to adjust your ranges because the regs tend to call wider in the later stages compared to the lower buy in levels.
    • ByronVW
      ByronVW
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2008 Posts: 37
      a