How to switch to 18/27/45 man from 9 man games?

    • Asaf92
      Joined: 17.11.2009 Posts: 104
      Hi forum.
      I usually play 9 man SNGs for the micro limits (1$ on PokerStars).
      Right now, the idea of playing 45 man SNGs sounds very nice to me, and i want to give it a try.

      What are the most importent adaptions to my game when switching from 9 man to 45 man? Is the SHC no longer valid? Is my range tighter/looser? Should i play differently on the push & fold stage and if yes, than how?
  • 12 replies
    • evertonroar
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 737
      i play on full tilt. i was a break even player (after rakeback) on the 9 man sng and then switched to primarily 27 man and 90 man sng. up to the $5-6 games now with a bank roll of over $1000. So my switch to the longer games has been very successful (espicially the 90 man sng). I wish you the same success.

      I find that there is much more dead money around. I play very conservative ABC poker at the start. I generally fold Aq offsuit in early position and only play suited connecters in late position to give you an idea of my starting requiements. Big hands, i just value bet and there always seems to be someone that comes along for the ride with a dominated hand. I c-bet alot which works really well.

      I then generally loosen up mid-late game (say 30 players left in a 90 manner - but depends on the blinds). I find in the longer game people are reluctant to call as they are scared of 'wasting' all the invested time. This is especially good when the antes are in (the 50 chip ante level at FT is my favourite for accumualting)

      when in the money, and if i have some chips i generally tighten up a bit and let poeple knock each other out. for some reason lots of people go stupid when in the money. of course if i have few chips, as long as i have two cards and a decent position its time to gamble.

      I guess its all just abc poker as per the articles but im running at 10% roi +rakeback after 3000 games which may not be great but im happy with it.

      would love to hear some other peoples views on this though.
    • Roachor
      Joined: 03.01.2010 Posts: 357
      Verry nice topic, im kind of thinking of switching also.

      My 9 man normal adventures are pretty swingy after 200 games i have a profit of 12$, so my bankroll is now 62 dollar :)

      Been playing a few 0,10 360player turbo's last couple of days to get used to the multitable and turbo format. finishing at around 90th place everytime so not doing that great but its good practice. (and i think less crapshooters on 1,10 45 and 90 man turbo).
    • andreibalint
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      I would loosen my range just a little bit in the early phases (like raising in EP with AQo and maybe AJs, also 99+), steal a little more, like raising from MP3 with 88 and KQ (of course if the players after me are tight or super tight).

      Also if i make it far i would consider pushing a little looser, especially if there are antes in the game and i'm in SB with no action before me. Stealing from BU and CO should be what keeps you alive when the blinds are huge.
    • lessthanthreee
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      early stage strategy is the same. tight is right + value bet when u hit big.

      late stage push/fold you have to be much much looser until close to the bubble.

      basically if you are using sng wiz, use CHIPEV to calculate +cEV decisions until the bubble gets close. then switch over to $EV.

      so basically, push wider when u are further from the bubble in late stage.

      your ICM on the final table has to be perfect because errors can cost you a lot more equity when the prize pool is so top heavy.

      + the variance is heavier.

      imo, i wouldnt even try 45s/90s unless i 16+ table. the variance just sucks too much.

      [edit] the antes make a huge difference to your ranges.
    • bradomurder
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      45+ seats are soooooooooooooooooo much easier than 9s

      im ROI of about 2% in 9s about 20% in 45+

      varience is bigger so make sure to be a bit more conservative with BRM i like 50-100BI at least

      and go crazy on the bubble, everyone just wants the next paystep. a few times i got a stack of ten times the next highest with 4 people left cos they're all just waiting for others to bust
    • lessthanthreee
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      a mate of mine had a 700BI upswing on the 45s then a 4,000 game BE stretch.

      MTT SnGs can be very brutal
    • bradomurder
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      my transition to 45s started with 30BI verticle drop followed by 300 games at 60% ROI including the initial drop.
    • miskokvo
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502
      45/90 vs 9? .. it is 50/50 ... you can play both of them with same profit

      45/90mans their got some + but also some -
      there was a lot of talking about + but i can write here some disadvatages..

      -finishing 1 regular 45mans in 1first place took ~130mins ... on average one take around 1 hour... if u wanna grind them yours session are most likely to cross 4-5 hours without significal break.. so if u are student or simply doesnt want to spend whole days behind pc and get blinded forget about 45 mans

      -variance is far far higher than in 9 mans... for simple it is 5 times higher... normal daily swings are 15-20bi... and you can expect like 6-7 days in row without maiking any profit costing you around 100-150BI ... i already had 3 120Bi downers in 6 months

      -you poker mindset should be far greater than in 9 mans ... it is realy hard on your psyche when you are chip leader or etc and get bubled out on final table or just finisihng in 5-6 place with only 1-2 buy ins ..the gap between 1 and 3-6 place is so huge... eg 45 mans 75$.. 150-300$ (2-4BI) for 3-6 place.. but 1200$ for first (~17bi)... if you finnished like 2-3 in 9 mans you can go on ... but if you constantly finish 2-3 on 45 mans it is realy hard to deal with and you profit will fall down as well

      -the biggest games are 75$ ...and their are thought ... coz their are filling slowly and there are always like more than 50% regs/winning players on average

      -when you get bad position on final table you are fu$ked up .. forget about even ITM

      -to play them well there is lot more skill to need ... more switching gears etc

      -if you do a math even having roi 20-30% at those is like the same as having roi of 8% on 9 mans..coz of bonuses and time

      -b/e streeks .. i had 2500games in row in b/e ...and dont forgot that those MTT plays at least 3 times longer than STT so mayking 2500game took around 4-5 months ... i 16 table like 10-12h a day 5-6days a week and didint cross 650 games per month so u can expect be b/e like for 4months often

      so before you get soucked in by ROI and stuff ..make some decesion .. if you wanna make money easyier way stick to 9mans or even CG... my personal thing why i still play 45 mans is that i love playing tournament poker .. nothing less nothing more

      edit: kinda same arguments as lessthanthreee spoken above
    • funktor
      Joined: 10.08.2008 Posts: 922
      I started to play 45/180 $12 Turbo last month...
      13 tabling

      So far very good :D

      4x times this month swing down over $500 (over 40BI).

      You have to have at minimum 130 BI for 45 handed,
      And 200+ BI for 90/180 handed...

      To be very effective expect that you have to play at minimum 3h sessions.
      You may need a lot of tourneys to show some profit as swing can be large.

      Created some excel, that generates results (30% ROI for 45 handed, 50% for 180 handed assumption)... on 5000 games you can see downswing of size for
      45 handed up to 100 BI
      180 handed even over 200 BI.

      Mixing 45+180 or 45+90 handed like 80%+20% will reduce overall variance (linear combination of normal distributions (similar like adding stocks to your bond portfolio, reduces overall variance)).

      The material I have read and like very much is Kill Everyone... recommend that.

      That's my five cents...

    • andreibalint
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      similar like adding stocks to your bond portfolio

      Maybe the other way around.
    • guska84
      Joined: 16.10.2010 Posts: 57
      Originally posted by funktor
      Mixing 45+180 or 45+90 handed like 80%+20% will reduce overall variance (linear combination of normal distributions (similar like adding stocks to your bond portfolio, reduces overall variance)).
      I think it's false. I like the comparison (180 = stocks, 45 = bonds) but adding stocks to BOND portfolio would increase overall variance in most cases.

      If you play 100% 180 and you change to 80% 45 + 20% 180, you'll reduce variance but if you play 100% 45 and then you add 180 you'll increase variance.

      And another thing... Seperate tournaments aren't correlated. In trading the stocks have positive, negative or no correlation at all. If you combine 2 "good" stocks (stocks which are +EV) that aren't correlated (for example different industries) you'll reduce the variance (actually standard deviation) while keeping the ROI at good level.

      In poker you can reduce SD just by playing according to BRM. It's less risky to play 10 SnG for 10$ than 1 for 100$, isn't it?

      Correct me if I'm wrong... I may be wrong... I'm tired after long session. I hope you get the point.
    • pzhon
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Good point, guska84.

      The analogue of diversifying your stock portfolio by investing in two unrelated stocks instead of all in one stock is to play two tournaments for half of the stakes. 50% stock A and 50% stock B can be safer than either, while giving you the full average return, but mixing 45 player and 180 player tournaments does not decrease your variance compared with the lower variance component.

      There can be reasons to mix games of different stakes and different numbers of players. You might get more final table practice when you play 45s so that you do better when you reach the final table of a 180. There might not be enough tournaments running at your favorite size/stake level so you might fill the space on your screen with secondary opportunities. However, bankroll management does not say to split your stakes or tournament sizes.