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Super Turbo SnG

    • sand372
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 6
      I will start by apologizing for the long message, i hope some of you will read it and try to help.
      I have been playing on FT since last June.
      I have been playing almost all the micro games: Cash, SnG, Turbo SnG, Rush, Tournaments.
      I didn't want to deposit so much up front so i only deposited the Minimum 50$ and since then been going up and down, got to 300$ went up and down several times and now on 200$.
      I have finding my self playing mostly Turbo SnG today, used to play 3.5 & 1.7, after the changes i tried the 5$ made some profit and then lost it so i am playing 2$ again. I play in the 6 Player tables. Trying to play within my limits. I usually play 2-4 tables.

      I have noticed a loss pattern that makes me think...
      I would give you an example from the last 4 games when i actually had it and decided to send this email:
      First table i actually got to heads up was 4-1 dog, the guy was going all-in every hand but I was able to to win 1 all-in got me to 700 chips and then called an all-in with pocket 9 to lose to J8o
      2nd table got to the final 3, on my right a short stack with 250 chips, on my left big stack with 950 chips, i am with 600. short stack starts to go all-in every hand, big stack keeps folding, i have shit hands, this has been going on for something like 20 hands, i was down to 325 when i was dealt KQs in Dealer, went all in to find the the BB with JJ and lost on the bubble.
      3rd table, Playing a table for quite a few hands, without many hands to play, down to the last 4 i am with 255 chips get A5o on the Dealer, Blinds 30-60, i try to steal to find the SB with AQ and of course i lose.
      4th table, early in the game i am dealt AA in the BB, SB calls, i 3 bet him, he calls and go all in after the flop. he shows 97o, spikes a 9 on the flop and 7 on the river.

      This few examples are things i mostly lost because:
      1) Big stack comes from behind, usually way behind (2,3,6 outs)
      2) Crack of big pocket pairs
      3) The "Trap" as i call it as in the 2nd and 3rd table example, you have to push/call. too many times on those tables you will see a bigger A to your smaller one, you will see A? against a pair and mainly when you are low on chips and must make a move, that's why i call it the trap.

      My questions are:
      1) Is it bad play from my part that makes me lose like that?
      2) What can i do to avoid it?
      3) Am i alone in thinking the examples in table 2 and 3 looks very "organized", it happens too many times to be a coincidence, most of the time when i call of go all-in i already know what is coming, I have days that looks like i am able to win 50/50 or even come from behind and there are days that it seems like i can't win anything...

      I knows the super turbo tables have a high variance but still there are successful players on those tables.
      I always have a feeling that if i don't have these kind of losses i can really go up the ranks but am always held back because of that I can't continue.

      Thanks in advance for your help,

  • 16 replies
    • pinnryder
      Joined: 10.11.2009 Posts: 597
      Welcome to the world of SnGs...
      Seems like standard spots where you lost. Maybe you missed out a few spots to push on the bubble if you get so short and find yourself as the shortstack. It always sucks. A lot of the players play really bad on these limits on the bubble. It takes a bit to get used to (for me it did) but if you follow ICM correctly it will turn your way.
      I personally would not play the super turbos there is just not enough play involved in my eyes. Why not try and play the turbos a little bit until you will feel more comfortable again..
    • nibbana
      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      1) & 2)

      Super Turbo variance is sick, you HAVE to put your chips in more often - when you're allin more often you're going to see more crazy stuff as a matter of course.

      Spend a few minutes on Sharkscope, go to the super turbo leaderboards and pick a very winning player. Check their losing streaks. The only way to overcome the "set-ups", the bad beats and outdraws is pure volume.

      3) Am i alone in thinking the examples in table 2 and 3 looks very "organized"

      I doubt very much that you are alone, but I think you're getting dangerously close to a defeatist attitude which could ultimately affect your decision making process. Perhaps a nice exercise would be to go over some of the suckouts YOU'VE had, with enough volume you'll find that it goes both ways.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Pretty much the usual bad beats, i don't really tilt from those anymore. I recommend having a decent bankroll, which also helps against tilting.

      I recommend downloading and practing with the ICM, from what i've read your probably playing to tight in the late stages.
    • elhh82
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      i think a mistake a lot of players make in STs are that they are too loose at the start.

      Wait for good hands for the first few orbits. When the table gets short handed, or when you're down to 5-6BB then start going a bit crazy.

      At the micros, the fish just drop out so quickly, you gain so much equity by just waiting for cards.
    • sand372
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 6
      Thanks for all of your replies.
      I do know most of the issue, usual beats, variance etc...
      Regarding regular/turbo SnG, i tried them but got to the conclusion that it comes down to the same push/fold/luck issue, so i prefer finishing quickly with it.
      Maybe the solution is really volume, My self even 4 tabling if sometimes hard for me, maybe i need to practice more.
      Further more, I usually don't put so long of a session, if i feel that i am losing i just stop and come back an hour or 2 later (Working mostly from home permits that)
      Regarding being too loose, i do play tight at the beginning, maybe even too tight, that's why i find my self going out on the bubble against 2 big stack a lot of the time, which is something else i am trying to improve lately.

      I will try to increase my volume and see how it goes...
      From the time i wrote that message i am on a good roll, up 50$ from the game and 20$ from rakeback, let's see if it will continue, i want to stay on the 2$ ones until i get to 350-400$, i already know the 5$ ones are not that different in play style, just need the right bankroll for them.
    • nibbana
      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      Originally posted by elhh82
      At the micros, the fish just drop out so quickly, you gain so much equity by just waiting for cards.
      There's a lot of sense in this post. At the micro's you're going to find a lot of players just testing them out, trying to figure out a strategy or even just pushing random cards from random positions. I personally found the low BI's hard to beat and it took a lot of getting used to.

      I'm currently playing the $5.30 ST's @ FT. I will look forward to your arrival ! If you fancy catching up on skype and doing some sweats/session reviews then I'd be happy to. Just send a PM.
    • sand372
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 6
      Thanks Nibbana, I will send you my skype details.
      Just had another one of those short sessions that you want the kill FT after, so i am writing here to take a short break.
      I played 12 games, got on 2 2nd places.
      Out of those 12 games, i was eliminated 9 times when i went all-in with the best hand pre flop and was sucked out with 3/6 outs (AJs vs QKs, AQ vs J8, 77 vs AQ, 77 vs AJ, 88 vs QT are examples only)
      In 2 other, i went all in from D or SB with good hole cards (ATs, 77) to find that after me sits better cards (AJs, TT)
      That's the kind of things that are hard for me to accept.
      Going in 9 times all-in when you are leading and lose ALL hands in a matter of 20 minutes that's wrong, the chances of that happening statistically are so close to 0 it's amazing and usually these kind of session are the ones that prevent me from going forward.

      I can accept bad play and fix it, but i can't find anything to do with that and until now when trying to fix streaks like that with volume i ended up only losing more and i always look back and find that it's because of suck outs and rarely because of bad play.
    • nibbana
      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      Unfortunately, if you choose your game to be Super Turbo's you are really, really going to have to become Tilt Resistant. You're gonna need to do sick volume to get past the bad streaks.

      I have gone on losing streaks of 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15 games 2 TIMES EACH !

      It's par for the course with Super Turbo's, a tough adjustment to make at first but your mental attitude may eventually be the only thing that can stop you beating these games.
    • sand372
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 6
      I don't know how to stop this.
      I am already down 30 BI in the last 3 days and i would stop playing unless i had 2 more days for Iron Man.
      This is just unreal, i keep losing all the time to suckouts, 2,3,6 outs ALL THE TIME.
      This can't be random cards, 2-3 players and everytime i hit a big A someone has a pair, i hit a pair someone has a big A and catches it.

      The amount of the bankroll i don't care about, I don't mind losing the 200 or so $, i think i am good enough to bit this game but keep going behind and the only reaon are those suckouts.
      I know people are playing bad at these levels but 2,3,6 outs should catch once in a while, not every hand.
      AT vs KJ should have some leverage, 77 vs J7 should have some leverage.

      It's can't be random that everytime when the game narrows to 2-3 people an A will be in so many hands.
      One game, 3 people left, i am the short stacked, i get AQs on the D, i push and get called by the 2 other players with AK and JJ, What is the chance that AQs in 3 handed game would be the worst hand?
      two games i get AA/KK, i raise and get called by the BB, we go all in after the flop and they get runner runner for the straight/flush.

      I look at the game history and can't believe my loses, you guys really believe it's just variance? variance should go both ways, for me it's just up or down, it's never in the middle.

      I don't know what to do anymore, i am thinking about giving up the Iron man althought i have 2 more days to complete it, those 2 days can cost me my whole roll if it continues that way.
    • elhh82
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 6,838
      you can always switch games for the Iron Man points.

      try the turbos, or if you want the fastest way, go the Rush Poker route.
    • nibbana
      Joined: 04.12.2009 Posts: 1,186
      sand, I PM'd you my skype. I think we should catch up, there's only two answers to the question "How am I losing this much". There are either problems with your strategy or it's cold hard variance. If like you say, you keep getting sucked out on then it's the latter.

      Hope to catch you on skype soon
    • sand372
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 6
      I didn't write here for a long time.
      First of all Nibanna, I added u on skype, i totally forgot to check this post again.

      An update, I am on a good run lately, I am up to 350$ in my account.
      I started playing NL10 Cap when ever i start to run bad, was able to make good progress there as well.

      Trying to play 50 ST's a day for now, this will bring me back to my Iron Man status for next month.

      I still suffer tons of bad beats, still too many times when i am losing i go into the hand with the winning hands. As i said before 3,6 outs are a huge factor to my loses, but i am able to over come them slowly and keep playing my A game.

      I made a small rule that when i am down 10 buyins i will start playing a session or 2 of NL10 Cap, it calms me down and the games are really bad there so i can make some of my money back.
    • alenstrat
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      I would think you need to follow different bankroll rules for hyper turbo. Probably at least twice the buyins for normal. Or even more. A bad day in hyper turbo can really dent your bankroll, with the amount of tourneys played. $350 would certainly not be enough for $5 hyper turbo unless you want to lose your bankroll in a couple of days' downswing.
    • 8979687
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      No offense meant by my post but sand you need to learn how to crawl before you can walk.

      If you are seriously contemplating wether or not it is a pattern or variance you are not ready to be
      chasing iron man and pushing for volume. IMO you should take the advice posted at least twice in
      this thread and play turbos first. You have more time to play before push or fold mode. Super Turbos
      are like an ICM quizz. They are also incredibly deceptive. What you push with 10 BBs in a regular
      turbo from UTG may be an easy fold in a super turbo in the same scenario.

      You are right about volume being the key to overcomming variance HOWEVER if you do not refine
      your play first volume will only hurt you.

      I just wish to suggest to you that you take your time, and play low limit turbo SNGS and when your
      BR builds up high enough that you can earn Iron Man without pushing for it then let it come as it does.

      Any time you try and push for any kind of bonus it fucks with your head hard unless you step back
      and see it for what it is. A bonus to your regular play including Iron Man.

      I myself just nearly made the big mistake of chasing a bonus that could have crippled my roll with a silly
      gamble. By stepping back and building up high enough that the bonus would come by me playing my
      normal limits at the time of going for it at my normal pace it is no longer a factor in how I play but
      just a bonus to add to my daily routine.
    • sand372
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 6
      I started playing the ST because i figured that anyway you get into the push/fold section of the game, even in Turbo's it's not much of a difference.
      Regarding the bonus/iron man, I wrote the last post in the end of last month when i was very close to making it, that's the only reason i mentioned it, i don't play for it.
      I know the regular BR talks about 50 buyins so i was aiming for 80-100 buyins to progress to the 5$ ST, i will reconsider it.
      It's been a while since i playing Turbo's, at least a few month, i will give it a shot 4 tabling a few days and see how it goes, if i do ok in the 2$ ones i will progress in the Turbo's and not the ST.

      I do know a thing or 2 about BR, if i didn't have a clue i would have lost the 50$ a long time ago.

      Thanks for the comments...

      I am editing the post after i played 4 Turbo's (Got one 2nd place finish out of all 4)
      I don't get the big difference between Turbo's and ST, probably between all 1 table SNG.
      I got the same exact situations i have on the ST, but it just took a long time to get there.
      I lost with AQ vs AJ, AK vs 45, AA vs KQ (To the same regular all 3 times), believe it or not.
      This is the same thing i see on ST every day only on the ST it happens on level 3/4 not on level 11-12.
      In 2 of the tables i busted out i had enough chips but players kept pushing and when i called/pushed with the hands like AQ, AK , AA i lost.

      So how it that so different?
    • Bigniux
      Joined: 09.01.2009 Posts: 2,098
      Hello guys :)
      I'm also grinding 1$ super turbo's at FT. 1,4k sngs 39,7% ITM, 5% ROI. Not much, but atleast something :)

      Originally posted by sand372was sucked out with 3/6 outs (AJs vs QKs, AQ vs J8, 77 vs AQ, 77 vs AJ, 88 vs QT are examples only)
      This one, these are not big suckouts :) last three are coinflips, you're winning only ~52% hands. AJ vs KQ: AJ wins ~60% only. AQ vs J8: AQ wins 63% hands.
      So, don't worry about losing these :) If you have PT3 or HEM, take a look how many times your hands win :)

      Talking about swings, i really know who they are :D having ~35 BI swings are quite normal (it might be lower, but my game still has some leaks). So get used to it and don't worry about being beaten :)