Unsuited face cards as a speculative hand

    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      I play unsuited face cards ( both cards are T or higher) exactly the same way i play suited connectors and suited aces: when 2 players limp i limp from MP or late. (except in situations where there are after me let's say 2 players with 30% PFR).

      For gapped suited connectors (mostly 1 gappers) i limp after 3 limpers.

      Anyway, is this way of playing unsuited face cards correct? In the articles i felt the idea that you "can" play them sometimes; i play them almost always.
  • 8 replies
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      do you have a copy of pokerstove?

      which do you think is better, QJs or A9s?

      same with JTs or K7s?

      etc

      do not get attached to face cards so easily imo!

      This is my opinion coming from playing turbos at least (3min blinds)

      I will only tend to play JTs and below on the blinds or button.

      I will play KQs and below in mid/late pos and tend to play pot control.

      the reason I asked you to look at the face cards vs random overcard and bad kicker is that it

      - highlights that the actual strength and the apparant strength of the hand are quite different

      -its easy to overplay hands like QJ against players who like to overcall you with a weak ace or Kx suited. etc

      ----

      A9s vs QJs equity
      56% vs 43%

      JTs vs K7s equity
      45% vs 54%
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      which do you think is better, QJs or A9s?


      Bronze level doesn't necesary mean i took the quiz yesterday!

      I basically play them for straights (if i make it it will be the nuts usually), 2 pair (which i guess it's dangerous since 2 pair for me = OESD/gutshot for someone - but can extract money), or for small pots with top pair.

      I didn't actually even considered not playing them until now... So all in all bad idea playing them?

      * And i guess it's more situational than that. So a better question is when is it a good idea to play them?

      There's no way suited face cards are a bad idea.

      PS: Dude,the whole idea of a speculative hand is that you're behind. Why do you call an EP raise with 22? There a big chance you're 20% to win the hand. It's all about implied odds.
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Originally posted by conall88
      do you have a copy of pokerstove?

      which do you think is better, QJs or A9s?

      same with JTs or K7s?

      etc

      do not get attached to face cards so easily imo!

      This is my opinion coming from playing turbos at least (3min blinds)

      I will only tend to play JTs and below on the blinds or button.

      I will play KQs and below in mid/late pos and tend to play pot control.

      the reason I asked you to look at the face cards vs random overcard and bad kicker is that it

      - highlights that the actual strength and the apparant strength of the hand are quite different

      -its easy to overplay hands like QJ against players who like to overcall you with a weak ace or Kx suited. etc

      ----

      A9s vs QJs equity
      56% vs 43%

      JTs vs K7s equity
      45% vs 54%
      Your post makes about zero sense.



      Ontopic. I hate limping off-suite hands even after limps. I guess it might be ok in smallest stakes if/when people stack off with random top pairs, but I don't think you will get enough value when you hit. Some random numbers:

      For JTo:

      ~2% flopping two pairs (JTx)
      ~1,3% flopping trips
      ~1,3% flopping straight
      ~0.1% flopping full house or 4-of-kind
      ~10% flopping open-ended straight draw

      So you have about 1.4% chance of flopping the nuts (Straight+). Problem is that these boards are very dangerous-looking so it is hard to get value. Trips and two pairs are better distinguished but you will run into set quite often into sets. Of course they are still profitable boards but you really can't expect to win 95% of time you hit and get chips in on these boards.

      ... Don't really feel like doing all the math.
    • Rhymenoceros
      Rhymenoceros
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2010 Posts: 97
      I know what you're getting at Andre. It has the effect of mixing up our play if we add these types of hands into the mix every now and again but if you are doing it all the time, then maybe thats a little too spewy?
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      There's no necesity to mix up my play since i play sng's up to 10$. So i guess i found another place where some of my ROI is going to. Thanks!
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Originally posted by Rhymenoceros
      I know what you're getting at Andre. It has the effect of mixing up our play if we add these types of hands into the mix every now and again but if you are doing it all the time, then maybe thats a little too spewy?
      man I feel stupid. this pretty much covers what I meant to say in my essay :rolleyes:
    • Rhymenoceros
      Rhymenoceros
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2010 Posts: 97
      Not sure whether thats sarcasm, if not sorry.....if so then bothered.

      I would like to point out that I am bronze and did take the quiz the day before i posted that.

      lol
      :P
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Funny. I really had no idea. You can see that i posted that before you posted, so i had no clue a player which took the quiz one day before will post. I felt somehow offended by HIS post because i'm asking something and he responds saying "look how smart i am, K2o is better than QJs"- you didn't know, did you?

      Anyway, i played some sng's yesterday and the only face cards i played early were:
      -for some reason calling AQs after a raise and a call from BB
      -limping AJo after one limper in MP (from what i remember he was very loose and i didn't want to raise because i would commit to much of my chips with a continuation bet).
      -raising KQo from MP3.

      Decent?