When to call ATC from BB as the SS

    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      We all know the situations, we havn't had any cards to steal blinds with lately or we have just taken a beat; whatever the reason WE are the short stack and the blinds are killing us.

      There probably isn't a specific answer to this question, but a guideline would be nice:
      How much of your stack can you invest paying the BB and still fold to a raise (assuming you have one of the worst possible hands)? I guess it's around 1/2 or a little less, giving you pot odds of 3,5:1 (if it's not the SB pushing), at least that's what I've been playing with.

      Bring out some oppinions!

      Mugge
  • 8 replies
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      assuming no bubble effects. you can call with ATC getting 2:1 or more.

      so calculate how much the blinds + antes are worth, add on the rest of your stack behind to that value (this will be your opponent's effective raise size). and then work out whether you are getting 2:1 or better when you call for the rest of your chips.

      example:

      blinds 400/200. you are in the BB with xx and 500 chips left after posting.

      CO raises to 700.

      effective pot is 600 (blinds) + 500 (effective CO raise) = 1100

      you have to call your remaining stack 500 to win 1100. you are getting 2.2:1.

      therefore you can call with xx.

      this is a good rule to start with. you can obviously adjust your range getting worse odds according to your opponent.
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Thanks for the rule, although there is of course always the bubble effect, this rule is handy :)

      One thing though; In the example you posted Hero has 900 chips in the BB, and can win 900 from the raiser - not only 500.

      I assume he raises by 700 to 1100 making the effective pot:
      600 (blinds) + 900 (effective CO raise) = 1500, giving the odds of 3:1

      Is this the wrong way to calculate it? Though it was "the pot you can win":"what you have to call"
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      in my example what hero starts the hand with is 900 chips. BUT he posts the BB of 400 and is left with 500 behind.

      therefore the raiser only has to raise an extra 500 chips + the 400 chip BB to put hero all in.

      even if he raises to 1000. his effective raise is still only 500 extra over the BB and you have to adjust the pot down accordingly.

      its hard to explain. im just trying to say that if someone shoves all in for 10BB and you only have 1bb behind.. obviously you cant win the whole 10BB from him, but only your stack. so you have to make sure you calculate the pot odds off your stack and not his
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      the bubble is obviously a factor but don't assume its more of a factor than it actually is either. if you are the shortest at the table and still have sb to come next hand you are probably going to be next out if you dont call.

      in the previous example if you dont call you will have 300 left after posting sb, no FE and are out next BB so you usually need to call.

      I find it helpful to ask these questions: If I fold, what are my chances of winning/cashing? if I call and win, what are my chances of winning/cashing? On the other hand if you are the bigstack and a tiny stack shoves so you are getting 2:1 ask yourself how calling and losing will affect your chances of a win compared with calling and winning or just folding.
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,877
      You should always evade to be in these situations at all. So what I try to say is that it might be better to shove with ATC from UTG in previous hand than to be calling with ATC from BB. That way there might be some fold equity and if not... Well more chips to win at least.
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Originally posted by lessthanthreee
      in my example what hero starts the hand with is 900 chips. BUT he posts the BB of 400 and is left with 500 behind.

      therefore the raiser only has to raise an extra 500 chips + the 400 chip BB to put hero all in.

      even if he raises to 1000. his effective raise is still only 500 extra over the BB and you have to adjust the pot down accordingly.

      its hard to explain. im just trying to say that if someone shoves all in for 10BB and you only have 1bb behind.. obviously you cant win the whole 10BB from him, but only your stack. so you have to make sure you calculate the pot odds off your stack and not his
      I still don't agree completely, maybe we are saying the same thing in two ways, but: If Hero posts a BB of 400, leaving 500 behind he can still win 1BB from CO (400) + what CO raises up to maximum of what you have left (500), meaning that CO can constribute with a total of 900 to the pot, which was what hero had at the start of the hand, and I believe is what the pot odds should be calculated from (+any blinds/antes posted of course) =
      Pot odds = possible winnings : cost of staying in the hand

      In this case:
      Pot odds = blinds (600) + 900 from CO (no matter how much he raises above the 900 of course): 500 <=> pot odds = 3:1

      No matter what it is of course a clear call with any two cards!


      And @ Bradomurder I do that and I know of the ICM and bubble play :)

      @ghaleon Of course, it is a shitty situation to be that short, but you cannot always evade it, but you might be right about pushing from UTG, although I would say it depends alot on how many people are left at the table.
    • Unam
      Unam
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 17.08.2006 Posts: 8,999
      Originally posted by Mugge88
      In this case:
      Pot odds = blinds (600) + 900 from CO (no matter how much he raises above the 900 of course): 500 <=> pot odds = 3:1
      Thats right.

      ATC calls in the BB are either because you are getting great odds, or because you have nothing left to loose.
      If you had 3,5BB left befor posting, but you are still 7Handed, and some one pushes into you, then you might decide it is worth gambling now and getting a stack that has FE. It might be better then folding now and folding the SB and then even after winning a hand you are in a similar situation to the one that you are facing now.
    • gedwashere91
      gedwashere91
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.07.2009 Posts: 2,387
      Yeah Unam nailed it perfectly.
      And plus, we're all degenerate gamblers at heart so when you don't really have a stack left to lose, you may as well go broke and do your lucky dance or whatever it is you do when you're being stupid and superstitious :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: