Why shoving with TT after 3bet?

    • MancaMulas
      MancaMulas
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2009 Posts: 4,491
      Hello!

      in the SHC says that we can go all-in with TT+ and AK when we made a raise PF and then received a 3bet. the people who created the SSS estimated a 3% average range of 3bet in the lowest limits. that is, our opponents make 3bet with JJ+/AK, in average.

      If I open raise with TT in middle position, and then for example the CO 3bets, the pot is:

      1,5bb (small blind and big blind)
      4bb (my raise)
      20bb (CO 3bet)
      = 25,5bb

      I have 16bb left, which gives me pot odds of 25.5:16 = 1.59:1

      with that pot odds, my break even equity is 100/2.59 = 38.61

      the equilator says that TT has 33.65% probability of winning against a JJ+/AK range... so, why do we shove TT when it's equity is inferior to the break even equity?
  • 9 replies
    • FishDan11
      FishDan11
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2009 Posts: 50
      You pose a very good question I have also wondered about... I'm looking forward to hearing some opinions :)
    • MancaMulas
      MancaMulas
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2009 Posts: 4,491
      Originally posted by FishDan11
      You pose a very good question I have also wondered about... I'm looking forward to hearing some opinions :)
      If the average 3bet percentage that was estimated for the micro-limits is JJ+/AK, I think that the answer should be to get out of the way with TT!

      TT x JJ -> we're screwed
      TT x QQ -> we're screwed
      TT x KK -> we're screwed
      TT x AA -> we're screwed
      TT x AK -> coin flip

      we're screwed most of the times!!!
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      It's because the range is often times wider, not only JJ+, AK for example if you put such range: 88+,AJs+,AKo
      You get 46,09% equity as you can see you are getting your equity.
      Only reason why we can fold here is if we have good reads on the opponent and we expect him to raise with only that range. From my own experience I usually raise with such range because I have played SSS myself. Also while I used to play SSS I saw a lot of 3bets being in such range as I put there. So more often it's opponents dependent. Also later on you will start playing with your own range and not the chart you are given, the chart is just a smallish help for beginners to start with.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      On uNL people see AQ as a huge monster as well ;)
      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 47.020 % 46.817 % 0.408 % 52.776 % TT
      Player 2: 52.980 % 52.776 % 0.408 % 46.817 % JJ, AQs+, AKo
    • caltabiano
      caltabiano
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.03.2007 Posts: 1,992
      Originally posted by MancaMulas
      Why shoving with TT after 3bet?
      Because TT is the nuts (as Gerv mathematically proved)
    • tomahawkpt
      tomahawkpt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2009 Posts: 78
      Hi Gerv,

      Shouldn't we consider JJ+, AQs+, AKo instead of JJ, AQs+, AKo ?? Villain can very well hold QQ, KK, AA as well

      Things become different now...

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 35.516% 35.31% 00.20% 159637896 911046.00 { TT }
      Hand 1: 64.484% 64.28% 00.20% 290588268 911046.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      I think stove just screwed me but yes you are right :) Still you see that you have the equity to call
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      They'll shove KTo 56s JTo ( a favourite), etc etc etc, to get you to fold. Just call and move on, win or lose.
    • Andresart
      Andresart
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.01.2009 Posts: 66
      Because many people like to slowplay KK-AA, so you should be able to quit one of this ones. And then, you might have your 38% of equity.

      Also, this is a very very basic SHC so you should try to use a more advanced strategy if you want to get profit. This is just for learning the buttons. And if you know what means equity, use a more advanced strategy.

      His range might be JJ-KK AQ+ or sth like that.