the stop and go

  • 17 replies
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hello lessthanthree,

      You can find a discussion on the Stop and Go here by Grummeler.

      All the best,
      -Steve
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      ooo juicy thanks
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      no probs mate, enjoy ;)

      -Steve
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The stop-and-go is quite different in STTs from MTTs. The reason is that players are much more risk-averse in STTs than in the middle of a MTT.

      A stop-and-go is an alternative to restealing all-in preflop. In a MTT, you might use it when you hope that your opponent will make a mistake evaluating his hand on the flop. In a STT, it can be right even if you are helping your opponent to make the correct decision. You can use a stop-and-go at times when you don't feel that you have much folding equity preflop, you had a decent hand, and yet you are very risk-averse. You want to give the preflop raiser a chance to fold after he sees an unfavorable flop. These folds may be correct, and yet they can help you.

      Let's consider the following bubble situation at blinds of 250/500. You are in the big blind.

      CO: 500
      BTN: 7000
      SB: 1500
      BB: 4500

      CO folds, BTN raises to 1500, SB folds, BB has 99 and ???

      Restealing offers the chip leader better than 2:1 pot odds. The big stack will often call, since if he loses, he will still be in decent shape with 2500 chips with the short stack about to hit the blinds. However, if you lose, that is a disaster since you go from a comfortable second place to bubbling out.

      If the big stack had pushed, you would need 75.5% equity against his range to call according to the ICM. Here is some output from my program ICM Explorer:

      Fold: 4000 chips, 0.3245, SD: $11.83
      Win: 9250 chips, 0.4297
      Lose: 0 chips, 0
      Tie: 4625 chips, 0.3393

      Equity needed: 75.53%

      You couldn't call with 99 even if you put the big stack on a random hand, since 99 only has 72% equity against a random hand. If you don't have much folding equity on a resteal, then restealing is similar to calling a push, which would be wrong here.

      A stop-and-go is an alternative. Let's suppose the button has A5o, and the flop is K76r. You push your last 3000, and the big stack correctly folds. Given that flop, the big stack is happy to get away from his hand. That doesn't mean you are unhappy that he got away!

      According to the ICM, you need 87% equity on the flop to prefer being all-in on the flop instead of taking the pot.

      Equity of a steal: 0.3736
      Failed steal, win: 0.4297
      Failed steal, lose: 0
      Ties are worth 78.97% of a win.
      Equity vs. marginal resteals needed to induce action: 86.95%

      Since A5 has an overcard and a backdoor straight draw, you only have 83% equity. This means you don't want action. You are happier to take the pot on that flop than to get a bad call, or to see that flop while you are all-in already. You gain by helping the big stack make a correct fold. You would gain even more if you get a hand like JT to fold since you only have 74% equity. How can you and the chip leader both be happy? The short stacks are unhappy to see the chip leader fold on the flop.

      The stop-and-go decreases the chance that you will play a big pot. Sometimes you gain chips by using a stop-and-go, and sometimes you lose chips, but the main time to use it is when you are risk-averse so gaining chips is not your main concern.

      Pushing may be worse than folding. However, a stop-and-go may decrease the chance that you will bust out by so much that a stop-and-go is better than folding.
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      thanks for the post pzhon. good read.
    • vladul11
      vladul11
      Global
      Joined: 31.03.2010 Posts: 1,344
      Very usefull post! Especially the link to grummeller's post.
    • AquamanBT
      AquamanBT
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 338
      I like the stop-and-go, but I have to admit that I do it mostly by feel rather than by equity %, as I'm not yet that advanced. Could someone explain mathematically if this is a correct situation to do it? Believe me, I don't want to "grail" the thread, so I'll understand if you guys feel that this is not the correct place to evaluate hands. I think it would be very useful for us mortals to understand concepts like these a little more. Thanks for your patience.


      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop

      CO (t1090)
      Button (t4710)
      Hero (SB) (t1955)
      BB (t3230)
      UTG (t860)
      MP (t1655)

      Hero's M: 6.52

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 8
      3 folds, Button bets t500, Hero calls t400, 1 fold

      Flop: (t1200) 5, K, 9 (2 players)
      Hero bets t1455 (All-In), 1 fold

      Total pot: t1200
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      That looks like a reasonable use of the stop-and-go play to me.

      If the big blind had overcalled, then you should be prepared to check-fold on that flop.
    • vladul11
      vladul11
      Global
      Joined: 31.03.2010 Posts: 1,344
      Did it work? I'm curious if it works in micro stakes. no point in doing these things with stupid calling stations. Thanks
    • BalticCrew
      BalticCrew
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2009 Posts: 118
      It actually does work. I play the micros as well. you have to pick your spots carefully but there are enough spots where it can be profitable to play stop-and-go. Sometimes there are opponents who call everything preflop but folding a lots of hands postflop. These players you can easily exploit by using the stop-and-go. You have to observe your opponents and adapt to their play.

      greets baltic
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      This isn't only a matter of exploiting your opponents. In a highly risk-averse situation, the stop-and-go can benefit both you and the preflop raiser at the expense of the other players. Helping the PFR to make a correct fold on the flop may cost you chips, or not, but it reduces the chance that you and the PFR will collide all-in.
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Originally posted by pzhon
      That looks like a reasonable use of the stop-and-go play to me.

      If the big blind had overcalled, then you should be prepared to check-fold on that flop.
      I disagree. I think just shoving preflop is a lot better.

      The stack sizes and position might be ok for stop and go, but it is bad with this hand.
    • BalticCrew
      BalticCrew
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2009 Posts: 118
      I agree with Anssi. the goal should be (in my point of view) to get called by the button because we are mostly ahead against his range with 88 and I think he will commit more likely preflop than postflop. If he commits postflop he will often have a king I guess.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by Anssi
      Originally posted by pzhon
      That looks like a reasonable use of the stop-and-go play to me.

      If the big blind had overcalled, then you should be prepared to check-fold on that flop.
      I disagree. I think just shoving preflop is a lot better.

      The stack sizes and position might be ok for stop and go, but it is bad with this hand.
      Medium pairs 66-88 are the classic examples of hands for a stop-and-go, although the classical discussion is for MTTs rather than SNGs. With which hands would you prefer to use a stop-and go, and why?

      That you are ahead of the PFR's range does not mean you want the action, since you are risk-averse.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      I mostly use it when I'm comitted preflop anyways, to add some FE. This works best against donks who don't know that you openshove every flop.
    • Benjike316
      Benjike316
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.04.2009 Posts: 3,904
      Hi there

      I'm from the Dutch community and I was wondering if the stop & go concept can be merged into a strategy-article for ST SNG's? That way it can be translated and we all can benefit from the concept :)

      Just an idea :f_biggrin:
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      Originally posted by pzhon
      Originally posted by Anssi
      Originally posted by pzhon
      That looks like a reasonable use of the stop-and-go play to me.

      If the big blind had overcalled, then you should be prepared to check-fold on that flop.
      I disagree. I think just shoving preflop is a lot better.

      The stack sizes and position might be ok for stop and go, but it is bad with this hand.
      Medium pairs 66-88 are the classic examples of hands for a stop-and-go, although the classical discussion is for MTTs rather than SNGs. With which hands would you prefer to use a stop-and go, and why?

      That you are ahead of the PFR's range does not mean you want the action, since you are risk-averse.
      I agree that the holding is good for a Stop n Go, but the stacksizes are not. You are not that risk averse, you invite BB in and you don't give 2:1 to the original raiser with a push. I like shoving in that spot.