Problem: stuck in the micros

    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      Hi there.

      I´ve been playing for a few months with my starting capital on Partypoker NL2. It´s been quite a hell for me, because I study poker everyday, read every article like a zillion times, practice calculating outs and odds, but still, I end up losing to some idiot who thinks 9Ks is the best hand in the world.

      I´m still on $50-$70 after all these months. I feel like a car stuck on mud, playing tables that are half calling stations, half maniacs. I tried playing even tighter and more agressive, but it´s useless.

      Has anyone else had a problem like mine? Any advice? :s_confused:

      Thanks a lot.
  • 68 replies
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      By the way, today, after one of those bad beats, I thought "you know what, screw that, I´m gonna play in a higher limit where people are not retarded". I know it´s bad BRM, but I just lost my patience. It went pretty good, I had the game under control and made some profit out of it. But it sucks to have 70% of your BR in play.
    • RMB
      RMB
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2008 Posts: 599
      Originally posted by cauelaratta
      By the way, today, after one of those bad beats, I thought "you know what, screw that, I´m gonna play in a higher limit where people are not retarded". I know it´s bad BRM, but I just lost my patience. It went pretty good, I had the game under control and made some profit out of it. But it sucks to have 70% of your BR in play.
      thats where it begins, It went "pretty good" this time. Stick to Brm, Micros suck, i play em too. Patience ;)
    • Grailer
      Grailer
      Global
      Joined: 19.11.2009 Posts: 321
      you need like super human patience to win at PP micros .

      on every table there is one or 2 fish who limp every single hand hoping to get lucky 1 time :P

      Then you lose to 5 outers because all in with 5 outs is +EV to these guys.

      But when there are 2 players all in and you have best hand you have to dodge way more than just 5 outs to call and win .

      In these situations I prefer to have 9 outs and hit my flush and take all the candy lol.

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3:
      $2.12
      CO:
      $3.00
      BU:
      $1.67
      SB:
      $4.07
      BB:
      $4.67
      UTG2 (Hero):
      $4.32
      MP1:
      $4.11
      MP2:
      $1.74


      Preflop: Hero is UTG2 with 9, T.
      CO posts deadblind, Hero raises to $0.16, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.16, MP3 calls $0.16, CO calls $0.12, 3 folds.

      Flop: ($0.7) Q, 2, 7 (4 players)
      Hero bets $0.50, MP2 raises to $1.58(All-In), MP3 raises to $1.96, CO folds, Hero calls $1.46.

      Turn: ($6.2) T (3 players)


      River: ($6.2) K (3 players)


      Final Pot: $6.2.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows a flush, king high(9 T).
      MP2 shows two pairs, queens and tens(T Q).
      MP3 shows a pair of sevens(A 7).

      Hero wins with a flush, king high(9 T).
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      1) Post hands...Chances are you forstly dont know when to put the breaks on and maybe you're betting in spots in not wise to, also maybe calling in spots where realistically there just isnt much you can beat, so post hands.

      2) LOL @ playing higher limits. If you carnt beat your current stakes you wont beat higher stakes....

      You dont become a winner overnight, it takes time.
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      1) Good advice. I will, soon.

      2) The thing is I wouldn't be so sure about that. There are a few difficulties which are hard to fight back when playing against beginners, because the game often unfolds in a very non-logical/non-predictable way. It's very different when people have the slighest notion of what they're doing. I'm not saying I can beat NL250 with my hands tied, I'm just saying that maybe NL10 might be easier than NL2.

      I think most of PokerStrategy's articles are suitable for NL10 or NL25 on, but the game appears to be quite different at NL5 or NL2. At least that's my impression. I really miss an article like "how to play against beginners/people who limp every hand" or "how to adjust your game to the micros".

      My strategy was trying to be extra tight and extra agressive. Since people simply don't fold, no matter how much you protect, it becomes a matter of valuebetting all streets and hoping villain doesn't complete his gutshot or whatever. :s_frown:

      If anyone has a piece of advice, I'd be very, very grateful.

      Thanks a lot everyone!

      C.
    • MrEnig
      MrEnig
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2009 Posts: 73
      when are you standing up and leaving the tables? I also used to have problems being profitable because basically every single time I sat at the tables:

      step 1 - I play for a while, slight minus at one table, even on another and +2 BI on other two or so

      step 2 - I play some more, end up breaking even on couple of tables, slight profit on one, and minus 1 BI or more on another

      solution - either play fewer tables and focus more, or just eliminate the step 2 when you are up enough. Or both.
    • MightyQuin007
      MightyQuin007
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2010 Posts: 2
      Try playing heads-up tournaments, like 4 player shoot outs. At a full ring table you have to deal with 8 players getting lucky. At heads-up only 1. There's a very good reason that most of the Pro's play heads-up.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
    • Grailer
      Grailer
      Global
      Joined: 19.11.2009 Posts: 321
      It doesnt matter how good you are, poker is 100% luck especially when you get into bad situations against bad players where you are forced to fold 2nd best hand or move all in and hope to hit your 6 outer drawing hand .

      I mean if this was real poker . I mean higher limit poker , I would have won this hand because no one would raise me with KJ offsuit here .


      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      SB:
      $1.56
      BB:
      $2.48
      UTG1:
      $0.24
      UTG2:
      $2.30
      MP1:
      $0.28
      MP2:
      $7.13
      MP3 (Hero):
      $1.60
      CO:
      $1.84
      BU:
      $1.87


      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, J.
      UTG1 calls $0.04, UTG2 calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04, MP2 calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.24, CO calls $0.24, BU raises to $0.44, 2 folds, UTG1 calls $0.20, UTG2 calls $0.40, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.40, Hero raises to $1.60, CO folds, BU calls $1.43, UTG2 calls $1.43, MP2 folds.

      Flop: ($6.36) A, K, K (4 players)


      Turn: ($6.36) T (4 players)


      River: ($6.36) 6 (4 players)


      Final Pot: $6.36.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows two pairs, aces and kings(A J).
      BU shows three of a kind, kings(J K).
      UTG2 shows two pairs, kings and eights(8 8).
      UTG1 shows two pairs, aces and kings(4 A).

      BU wins with three of a kind, kings(J K).
    • Ultifanatic
      Ultifanatic
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2008 Posts: 100
      cauelaratta....

      NL2 is not what you are going to make large sums on money at....but on the other hand you can actually learn a hell of alot from micro stakes players. Plus with what you learn, you can crawl out of the NL2/NL5 stakes into something hopefully more profitable, and be a better player overall for it.

      The thing is, cash games just might not be right for you at this time or even ever. Only you can truely know if play NLHE Cash is a good fit for your poker career. You might enjoy cash, but that does not mean at all that you are good at it, have the personality, mathematics, intuition etc for cash(right now).

      Have you tried other forms of NLHE? Or even other forms of NL2 cash? Like short handed, HU, etc? Of have you tried SNGs or MTTs? Other forms of poker like omaha, stud, Razz or even Limit poker? Some of these other forms of poker might suit you better in the beginning to allow you to build your bankroll enough to move up a few limits. Who knows you might be an awesome stud players that never looks back at holdem....

      I could ramble on for ever about different things you can try, look it to, learn etc but I will only mention one more if you want to keep playing NLHE Cash

      You mention you try to learn about poker all the time....but you do not get to read articles specifically to NL2 type fish that make no sense compared to the articles you read about poker. Well there are only two things you can essentially do at this point....
      take your time to learn about beeting NL2 type donk/fish by either find articles on other sites that help you specifically with NL2 type donk/fish and learn to figure out on your own how to catch the NL2 fish through lots of examination while playing them(ie if fish 1 never folds, only play at that fish with the nuts, fish 2 will fold complete air then take a few more +EV spots against fish 2 etc.)
      If you do not want to do that because it frustrates you too much to play NL2 no make sense fish, which i know it can do to many...then suck it up, make some NEW BRM rules for yourself and play at a higher level like NL10. It might mean saving 20 bucks a month to place in your poker account to keep funding your higher limit or just keep reloading to 50 bucks when you bust out or playing 1 table of NL10 with nice tight play till you get your NL10 legs and leave the table/session for the day if you take a 50BB hit at that table.....

      ramble ramble ramble....lol :f_eek:
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      I think that starting at NL2 BSS FR its not so easy like it seems at first.


      Best start is SSS. U have time it to learn, beggining is quite simple, but its really hard to find proper tables. Finding proper site and tables is the most difficult in SSS.

      I remember my start at SSS NL10 ar Pacific Poker. There were just few tables avaliable but i knew that patioent is the most important skill there.


      So my progress was so simple....i remember that it was really hard to end the day without profit. To bad that at NL50 BSS SH i play now, its not the same:) )


      So my advice for you is...learn, be patient, and avoid tilting.

      Player at MICROs are so bad that you just need to hit nice hand on flop and you have your pockets full of change:) )



      I am sure you read articles about cbetting. Just be careful on that stat and take a look at percentage of your successful cbets. At micros ppl dont want to fold. And there are also other things which are different at micros...bot you have to know that those things makes game more profitable and not less.


      I wish u all the best and good luck at the tables.
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      Thanks a lot for the replies. Good to know there are members who genuinely try to help beginners. :) There´s still a lot I need to learn, and I´m talking mostly about stuff you don´t find in the articles... choices you have to figure out by yourself. That´s why I´m not afraid to speak my doubts, even though I know they may sound stupid sometimes.

      As for trying other games, I really wanted to take a shot at SNGs and MTTs, but I don´t have enough BR to play them "safely". I also have the impression that SNGs are games where luck plays a bigger role (compared to cash games), so in order to make it profitable it´s necessary to play a lot of SNGs to win money in the long run. I don´t have enough BR to play lots of SNGs, therefore I´m sticking to cash games by now.

      As for different types of games, I also have the impression the NLHE is the game that attracts most of the fish, because it´s the most famous kind of poker. Of course I might be awfully wrong here as well.

      I think NLHE is what I´ve always played, so I´m sticking to it and trying to addapt my game to the micros. In Super/System, Brunson says that "if you can´t beat the calling station, you can´t beat anyone", and I think he couldn´t be more right, even though he probably didn´t refer to FR online swarms of hald-brained players. What I gotta do is find a way to play lots of them profitably at the same time.

      That´s my decision, and I´ll accept any suggestions.

      Thanks a lot!
    • Effanongen
      Effanongen
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.02.2010 Posts: 45
      *Moving up where they respect my raises*

      Most overused last words ever.

      It should rather be something like: *I should learn to fold*

      If you know when to fold I doubt you should be losing anytime soon on NL2.
    • Leito99
      Leito99
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2009 Posts: 754
      ye that guy above is right...
      its a good idea to start with SSS
      get used to which hands to play and you dont have too many decisions to make so there isnt a lot of pressure on you
      then when you understand the game better, start playing some other kind of game
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      I've been playing 'swarms of half brained' fish for 3 yrs and the easy way to beat them is play standard TAG, or even tighter. IT's slow but certain that they will pay you off.
      I don't need to play that way so much now though, but it works. I've also played as far as $1/$2 and athere are still plenty of players who'll stack you with J2 soooooted, so that part is a myth.
      Stick to standard play at micros and slowly it will come around. I play 4 tables of $4 FR for about 2hrs in the am and 2hrs in pm. I average about $150 a week (not brilliant but good for me), so it is certainly possible.

      Keep posting ans asking questions, read articles and watch vids on here. Especially attend coachings, those guys are good.

      GL. :)
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      I´m gonna post a few hands I found interesting. Please help me find any leaks.


      Hand 1: My doubt in this hand is about the size of my flop bet. I hit the nuts on the flop and raise pot size to try to get some of the 5 :f_eek: villain t fold. Guy reraises, I move all in and lose. Was the raise size corect, considering the number of players involved and flush draw board?

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)

      Known players:
      CO (Hero):
      $1.60
      BU:
      $2.22
      SB:
      $2.17
      BB:
      $0.62
      MP1:
      $1.94
      MP2:
      $1.56
      MP3:
      $3.33


      Preflop: Hero is CO with 6, 2.
      Hero posts deadblind, MP1 calls $0.04, MP2 calls $0.04, MP3 calls $0.04, Hero checks, BU folds, SB calls $0.02, BB checks.

      Flop: ($0.24) 3, 5, 4 (6 players)
      SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.23, SB raises to $0.68, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises to $1.56, SB calls $0.88.

      Turn: ($3.36) 5 (2 players)


      River: ($3.36) K (2 players)


      Final Pot: $3.36.
      Results follow:

      SB shows a flush, king high(7 6).
      Hero shows a straight, six high(6 2).

      SB wins with a flush, king high(7 6).
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      Hand 2: Not much to say, I guess. Something wrong with this one?


      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      MP1:
      $3.33
      MP2 (Hero):
      $1.60
      MP3:
      $1.50
      CO:
      $3.17
      BU:
      $0.80
      SB:
      $1.79
      BB:
      $1.48
      UTG1:
      $1.30
      UTG2:
      $1.03


      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J, J.
      Hero posts deadblind, UTG1 folds, UTG2 calls $0.04, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.30, 4 folds.

      Flop: ($0.7) 8, 7, 6 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.50, CO calls $0.50.

      Turn: ($1.7) T (2 players)
      Hero raises to $0.80, CO calls $0.80.

      River: ($3.3) K (2 players)


      Final Pot: $3.3.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of jacks(J J).
      CO shows two pairs, kings and tens(T K).

      CO wins with two pairs, kings and tens(T K).
    • cryoburn
      cryoburn
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 322
      The NL2 FR at PartyPoker are the softest games I've ever played.
      Yes, villains can make you tilt with their poor play when they suck out on you. But believe me, those are the ones that will gladly stack off all kinds of crap. If you can handle tilt, just rebuy and move on. And probably make a note "friggin' calling station".


      Here's my 63k hands graph at PartyPoker's NL2 FR where I ran at 14.66bb/100 (and with some awful plays and tilt in there):




      If I can do it, anyone can!
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      Hand 3: Didn´t play this one to the showdown. Just wanted to know if the call preflop is ok. I called because I´d bet way ahead if I hit a set, with a lot of opponents involved.

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      SB (Hero):
      $2.10
      BB:
      $2.22
      UTG1:
      $3.77
      UTG2:
      $0.78
      MP1:
      $2.07
      MP2:
      $1.21
      MP3:
      $1.55
      CO:
      $1.60
      BU:
      $2.88


      Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, 9.
      2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.08, 3 folds, BU calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.06, BB raises to $0.20, MP1 calls $0.12, BU calls $0.12, Hero calls $0.12.

      Flop: ($0.8) 6, 7, T (4 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets $0.12, BU folds, Hero folds, BB calls $0.12.

      Turn: ($1.04) J (2 players)
      BB bets $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20.

      River: ($1.44) 3 (2 players)
      BB bets $0.60, MP1 calls $0.60.

      Final Pot: $2.64.
      Results follow:

      MP1 shows a pair of aces(A A).
      BB shows high card ace(K A).

      MP1 wins with a pair of aces(A A).