Question: River play in the beginners tutorial

    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
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      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      Hi there

      I'm not sure if this is the right place for asking, but seems like this is the only part of the forum where I'm allowed to post!

      I just registered and am studying the beginners tutorials. I have a question about river play.

      Rule 6: Just bet made hands if you want to be called.

      This is not very clear to me. Could someone perhaps explain this? If I'd have a weak made hand on river, I'd bet. But apparently this doesn't seem to be a very good idea?

      It's really funny because I think I understand all other parts of the beginners tutorial, but this rule number 6 is just killing me :)

      Thanks in advance!
  • 10 replies
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
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      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Hey Darthbobo. I haven't looked at the article, but I think what it means is, only make a bet if you want someone to pay money to see what you have bet with. In other words, you think you have the best hand, and would like someone to pay to see it. Then make a bet. Otherwise, if it is weak, don't bet. Check, and hope they check behind, or if you have to pay a bet with your weak hand, you can decide whether it is worth it.

      I hope that makes sense, and I hope that is what it means.
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
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      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      Thanks for your quick reply aciddrop.

      Here's the text I'm referring to:

      There is no point in betting a weak made hand. If your opponent does not have a hand at all, he will be forced to fold to your bet anyways. Thus, betting will not maximize your profit. You should only bet if you want to be called. From your opponents view: There have to be more plausible calling hands which you can beat than vice versa.

      About the first 2 sentences: If I have weak made hand and I bet, then my opponent will fold (if he doesn't have a hand), and thus I win the pot. How exactly is that 'not maximizing my profit' ?
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
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      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Right, now I see what you are saying.

      It's like this. If you have a weak made hand, and you bet, any decent hand, which most likely has you beat, will at least call, and maybe raise. A hand that has no showdown value at all will mostly fold.

      If you have a weak made hand and you check, that same hand may check behind. If it does bet, you can then decide whether or not to call yourself.

      The advantage of doing it this way is, your opponent, who would fold his weak hand to your bet, may be induced by your check to try a bet with his weak hand, which you can then call. This is called the bluff induce. You don't bet with your hand, and try to get opponents to make a bet that you have some chance of beating if you see a showdown.

      So, when you bet with a weak hand, the only time anyone will call, or raise, is when you are beaten. You will lose every one of these bets. Whereas, if you check, a weak hand will either check behind, giving you a chance to win the showdown without having to put any more money in, or bet, allowing you to pay the same amount of money without risking being raised. Since this bet may be a bluff by a weaker hand, you will win more often, without risking as much to do it.

      I think. :)
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
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      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      Thanks, I think I understand now. I'll have to read it a few more times though :)
      Very insightful!
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
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      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      yeah, I hope I wasn't too long winded.

      Basically, what it is saying is, you will win the hand just as often when you see a showdown without putting that money in. When you do put money in, you won't win more often, in fact you will lose more money when you do lose..
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
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      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      This is a short summary I made. Is it correct?

      Situation: I have a weak made hand, and I suspect the hand of my opponent is worhtless. We're on the river and there's one opponent left. He's in late position.

      possibility 1: I bet, and my opponent becomes scared and he folds.
      Result: I win, but my opponent didn't put any extra money in the pot on the river.

      possibility 2: I check, and my opponent decides to bluff and he makes a bet. I call and then there's the showdown (which I win).
      Result: I win one extra BB.

      Basically it's like this, isn't it? The latter is better because I make more money :D
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
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      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Yes, correct, you maximise profit by gaining extra bets when you have him beat.

      If he doesn't bet, you still see a showdown, and if you have the best hand, you win anyway.

      With possibility 1, sometimes your opponent won't fold to your bet, he will actually raise. Now you have a problem. You have spent 1 bet, but if you want to know for sure that you are beaten, you will have to pay another one, or waste the first one. Ugly. With the weak made hand, checking the river is the best bet sequence.
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
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      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      I completely understand now. Thanks!

      But now I have another question. Haha sorry... :)

      Rule number 3 is: Bet if you have a GOOD made hand.
      So why should I bet with a good made hand? If I want to maximize profit... isn't it better to check at first, just as I would do with a weak made hand?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      If you have a good hand then there are more worse hands that can call you. Also you can call a raise and catch a bluff that way because with a weak hand you have to fold to such a raise. :)
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
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      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      Thanks for your input aciddrop and cirith. You've helped me very much!