A live hand/rule clarification

    • peche025
      peche025
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2008 Posts: 1,387
      1) I was playing in a live MTT the other day and an interesting hand came up where no-one was sure of the exact ruling I was hoping someone could clarify.

      We are at the final table and there are 5 left, MP folds, I shove 12BB, BTN folds, SB pushes 8BB and BB folds.

      The SB then throws his hand in the muck and tries to take the pot from the middle. I tell him that I was all in and everyone wonders what to do next. Everyone apart from the SB knew I was all in.

      The muck consists of 4cards and SB wants to tell someone his cards, have them take them from the muck and play the hand. I rationalise that he might not have even pushed had he known I was all in.

      After some discussion the person in charge awards the entire pot including SB' chips to me and the SB leaves pissed off.

      Anyone know if this is the correct decision?

      2) I have a second question about a second MTT I have just remembered.

      There was a hand where I open utg CO 3b and I 4b push. The CO asks me how much it is and I tell him it's 13k this is where the confussion occured as he took it to be 13k in total where as I believe I am telling him it's 13k to call. He pays the lower amount about 6k too little we play out the hand I win and about 4hands later I am stacking my chips and counting them and realise I don't have the correct amount. Is this just a question of being more clearing in stating the amount of chips you have? If I have clearly stated it's 13k to call and have witnesses at the table to back this up can I get him to pay these chips after the hand is over?

      Thanks for the help
      peche
  • 17 replies
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Well it's probably the Casino's rules. And they probably aren't the same in all Casino's.


      It's pretty messed up for the SB. Imo it might have been better to just give his chips back And let you have the pot with his SB.


      On the other hand, he folded his hand. So that's why you won it. Although you can't exactly fold a hand when you just shoved..
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,284
      Once you throw away your cards you can't get them back.So you lose the hand no matter what is going on as in your case happens.

      The second one is weird . Wasn't there a dealer ? they MUST count the chips in every pot no matter if the players do it in front of them and they are right.
    • IcMean
      IcMean
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      Joined: 17.08.2009 Posts: 2,348
      • 11.05.2010, 09:50
      • This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by IcMean: 11.05.2010 09:55.
      This one is pretty similar, here the dealer mucked her hand.



      So basically she had to pay the original raise . I guess SB has to pay your raise in this case because he called and then mucked his hand, which makes it dead. (which is more than his stack)
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,613
      hey.

      As a tournament director I'll post my views and rules.

      So,

      1) this is an iffy subjecy because technically no all-in hand can't be mucked.
      The tournament director should do everything possibly to retreive the cards. I would ask the player secretly what his cards were and ask to point to the two cards that are mucked. If they are the two cards then i would say its ok but if they werent i would have to award the pot to you.
      I would also give the guy a cauction and explain to all players what just happened.

      But, if this was not an all-in, its unfortunate but his cards would stay in the muck and they would not be retreived at all.
      For example, if there was 3 players in the pot.
      Check
      Bet
      Raise
      Initial checker mucks and then before the better makes a decision, the raiser folds. Then the better would be awarded the pot.
      And,

      2) this sucks because you didn't receive the amount you should of. But you will not be able to receive your extra chips.
      If you guys had noticed before anymore betting rounds, the guy that didnt notice would have to leave his call in and have to decide wether or not he wants to call the amount left to call.

      Hope this helps mate.
      Regards,

      Kyle.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      lol i saw that hand with that women. Now that i rewatch it's kinda her fault too, Should have payed attention instead of looked away or whatever the fuck she was doing.

      If i went all in i sure wouldn't be looking away from the table, I would have grabbed the dealers hand before he mucked them and say "HEY, I WENT ALL IN"..
    • Skyscrapers
      Skyscrapers
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      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 104
      Originally posted by Hahaownedlolz
      lol i saw that hand with that women. Now that i rewatch it's kinda her fault too, Should have payed attention instead of looked away or whatever the fuck she was doing.

      If i went all in i sure wouldn't be looking away from the table, I would have grabbed the dealers hand before he mucked them and say "HEY, I WENT ALL IN"..
      she's to busy giving j.c. tran false tells to protect her hand :f_cool:
    • 8979687
      8979687
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      So if I reach over and push all the guy to my lefts chips in the middle of the pot when its his
      turn to act is he ALL IN because he didn't protect his stack? I am being serious here I would
      like to know the real answer.

      I have never really played a serious live tournament but was thinking of trying one out.

      I never in a million years would have thought that it was my fault and not the dealers if I go all in and
      after I go all in he takes my cards and mucks them before the flop even comes.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,613
      haha you would obviously get a warning and if you messed up again you would get penalty's.
    • SoWe
      SoWe
      Global
      Joined: 10.01.2008 Posts: 2,397
      Hi, my name is Hans. I do Rechtschreibflames.


      Originally posted by justkyle882) this sucks because you didn't receive the amount you should of.
      what?
      should of?
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      haha you would obviously get a warning and if you messed up again you would get penalty's.
      what?
      "penalty's"?
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      I don't think it's too hard to imagine you will get fired if you do that every night..
    • 8979687
      8979687
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      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      haha you would obviously get a warning and if you messed up again you would get penalty's.
      Was this to my question? If I push someone elses chips all in on their turn to act they are infact all in and
      I just get a warning?!!!
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Originally posted by 8979687
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      haha you would obviously get a warning and if you messed up again you would get penalty's.
      Was this to my question? If I push someone elses chips all in on their turn to act they are infact all in and
      I just get a warning?!!!

      lmao, i think he meant the dealers mistake. I'm pretty sure you will get kicked out if you actualy did that. I wouldn't try it. -EV for your self esteem.
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
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      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      • 11.05.2010, 22:22
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by bradomurder: 11.05.2010 22:23.
      live poker can be a bitch for the unwary. if SB mucked his hand a lot of places would just say "tough luck get out of here bro you lose sucker." but it depends on the game and on how the other players in the pot react.

      I was playing a few month ago and this happened:

      my mate was in a hand vs some lose donkstation who thought he was good and the flop came something like: QQJ

      My mate had AJ and donkstation had some Ax it got to the river with a pot of about 30BB QQJXA giving them both aces and queens with a J kicker.

      Donkstation shows his hand and my mate just showed his ace for the split and the dealer mucks his cards, saying he has to show both or its a muck and after some commotion the donkstation scoops the pot.

      The dealer gave him the option of splitting and the table put pressure on him but he just scooped and didn't say much.

      A bit shit but he wont make that mistake again and i got a free lesson
    • tcs35
      tcs35
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 3,583
      1) Any hands that enter the muck should be dead in my opinion.
      2) After the next hand is dealt I don't think there is anything you can do. Just keep a mental note of the pot size and make a quick count if you win the hand.
    • AquamanBT
      AquamanBT
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 338
      Every casino has it's own rules, as absurd as they may be. We, as players, are responsible to know them. I once (never played there again) pushed UTG 10 BB with JJ. I was sitting right next to the dealer, who grabbed my stack, put it back and said it was just a call, since I hadn't verbally said "all-in". I thought chips speak themselves. Well, got 8 calls... 1st card flopped, Ace... It was checked down and A-6 won with flopped two pairs. Sick rule...
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,613
      Originally posted by SoWe
      Hi, my name is Hans. I do Rechtschreibflames.


      Originally posted by justkyle882) this sucks because you didn't receive the amount you should of.
      what?
      should of?
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      haha you would obviously get a warning and if you messed up again you would get penalty's.
      what?
      "penalty's"?
      Sorry but I dont understand your first question.

      As for penaltys, could be things like time off the table for 5mins-30mins and as harsh as disqualification.

      Regards,

      Kyle.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,613
      Originally posted by 8979687
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      haha you would obviously get a warning and if you messed up again you would get penalty's.
      Was this to my question? If I push someone elses chips all in on their turn to act they are infact all in and
      I just get a warning?!!!
      Well it depends how nice your TD is ;)
      And if they were mucking around and having a bit of fun.