QQ - 3bet / flat / shove?

    • Rhymenoceros
      Rhymenoceros
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2010 Posts: 97
      Question: Should I flat / shove / 3 bet

      Live MTT SNG
      Blinds: 200/400
      6 handed

      UTG folds
      Villain MP ~7800 (TAG) raises 1200
      Hero ~11000 (QdQc) in CO

      I have three players to act behind me and before looking at my cards notice a good LAG player to my left has 1200 in his hand ready to call.

      I put the initial raiser on AJo+ TT+ so I am only crushed by AA,KK and flipping with AK.

      I ended up 3 betting to 3400 and this is my thinking: If I 3bet and someone comes over the top that is showing extreme strength, then if the initial MP raiser moves all in I consider myself flipping at best in a multi-way pot and maybe able to fold for the rest of my stack.

      If it folds round to the initial raiser who ships it then I can take a race heads up with 3200 behind to stage a ship or fold comeback if I lose at showdown.

      If one or more opponents flat and the board comes K/A high and I do not improve then I may check/fold depending on the board texture and action.

      Is shoving here too high variance? Would flatting be better for pot control and if the flop texture is poor then I can check/fold for 1200 instead of spewing off most of my stack when (against the MP opponent) I am racing like 75% of the the time.

      I lost the race anyway. I am not sure whether I am playing scared poker or making bad decisions any more and I am really starting to lose confidence in my ability to play.
  • 6 replies
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      3bet to 3600 and call if he shoves.

      i would never fold QQ here pre-flop against 1 opponent. even if someone from the blinds shoves.
    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      how deep where the players behind you? why are there only 2 players behind you when you are in the CO? ^^
      imo the only question is if you should raise (and to how much) or if you should shove right away. if the players behind you have shallow stacks as the initial raiser does, i would shove right away because it looks way weaker than the commiting raise...
      and how can you put the initial raiser on such a tight range? how many places get payed? :)
      and finally: are you sure that the LAG to your left was a good one? imo it sounds kinda fishy if someone looks at his cards out of turn and already give tells about his upcoming actions by preparing chips to call ^^
    • Rhymenoceros
      Rhymenoceros
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2010 Posts: 97
      Sorry yeah three players to act behind me :f_mad:

      I think they had similar stacks to the inital raiser except for the BB who was chipleader and stacked.

      I say good LAG player comparatively, the other players I would consider to be quite fishy. About the picking up chips live tell, this guy should know better I play with him a lot, think it was a lapse in concentration TBH.

      You say just ship it because it looks weak? Are we looking for calls from player behind me? I did'nt think we would want to take a multi-way with a big pair as our equity begins to decrease does it not? My plan was isolation of the initial raiser.

      Top three places were paid and two more needed to bust before final table. ( I know weird structure). Its a Pub poker type thing. About the tight range of the MP raiser, he is a very predictable Nit and everyone there knows this. Maybe at a stretch we can include KJs+, 88+ but I would bet my bollocks this guy limps or folds worse.

      3bet to 3600 and call if he shoves. i would never fold QQ here pre-flop against 1 opponent. even if someone from the blinds shoves.


      Cool,glad I got it right then, btw I know folding is not an option :P . I just thought the open ship is a bit high variance. Plus the MP raiser isnt 4 bet shoving with worse than AKo IMO. Although I was happy to take a race here.

      I just want to know if I am taking the right line or whether taking a small ball approach would have been better.

      Here's another dilemma I had at big live event recently, felt a bit coolerish, I just wonder if any one else plays it differently.

      $150 shootout PKR Live IV side event
      Blinds: 200/400
      5 players left, top 3 advance to the next round.

      Hero BU (AcKc) ~ 8000
      Villain SB ~ 10000
      BB ~ 8000
      UTG ~ 3000
      CO ~ 5000

      UTG open ships, folds to me on BU. This is more to do with the structure did I really need to get involved?

      Easy ship for isolation right? I ship it and Villain Ships it >< BB folds.

      UTG shows QcTc
      SB AsAd

      Aces hold up to win the lot and the sit outs go through.
      bleurrrrrrgggghhhh!!!!!!
    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      Originally posted by Rhymenoceros
      You say just ship it because it looks weak? Are we looking for calls from player behind me?
      nope. i'm looking for a call by the initial raiser with a weaker hand :)
      with a bigstack behind you i think a raise is fine as well. but i guess i'm not folding... if the bigstack shoves and the initial raiser is really as tight as you said and calls the push you are probably crushed :P

      the other hand is an easy ship for me as well. you should easily be ahead against his range. if you win you are basically through and if you lose you still have a decent stack to play with.
      it's very unlikely that someone behind you is overcalling (especially because you are blocking one K and one A). just bad luck imo

      btw: there is an mtt forum :)
    • Rhymenoceros
      Rhymenoceros
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2010 Posts: 97
      In no1 he had AK as suspected so I was quite happy to be flipping anyways, despite losing the race.

      if the bigstack shoves and the initial raiser is really as tight as you said and calls the push you are probably crushed


      This is why I think the 3 bet is the best line because I have now defined my hand and can fold for cheaper if the above is the case.

      Thanks Frzl!
    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      well that´s not what i wanted to say :D
      i would still call as long as my read isn´t very good. especially with such a top heavy payout structure :)