Limited Holdem, Unlimited Fun

    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      My poker career consist of 3 parts. First I got starting $50 on and started playing SSS on PokerStars, went up to $180, tried to get an additional bonus, went up limits and lost all 180 and more. Got a break, started playing BSS. It didn't work too. Too many stacks lost to recreational (or else) players. Funny fact: I checked players who won most against me and who lost. All 3 best winners against me were losing (and two of them tough 000s losers), and 4 of 5 players who lost to me were solid plus players :)
      Anyway I was tired to lose another stack to players re-raising you with 24 or 69 and getting second pairs or even more, so tried to find a safe haven playing limit holdem, where you're supposed not to bluffed too often and have some profit if you're disciplined and mathematically correct.
      Third time a charm! If system doesn't like you, there's no difference, what poker to play :)
      Before at least I have some ups. In my Limit career on .25/.50 I lost all 5 sessions in a row. In few sessions (including today) I never jumped above 0 at any point. That's something, you raise with premium hands and got no help at all - means no help not on flop, but in all cards. I got bunch of AK, AQ and AJ and no pair till the river. Got suited aces, few monster draws - lost. When I finally got "help", it often only increased my losses. Like today: AQ finally got Q on flop and lost to QQ or collected straight on the river to lose couple extra BBs to already completed full house. In five sessions I never won with AKs and KQs - 0%. In fact AKs lost most money for me than any other hand.
      People told me that limit holdem may be even more disturbing than NL, but I didn't believe :( It's interesting what will be gone first - my patience or remains of my bankroll?
  • 128 replies
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hey poger8

      Are you applying proper BRM (Bank Roll Management) while you are learning FLHE?

      For full ring(FR)/short handed(SH) $.25/$.50 you really should be using a $150 / $250 bankroll (FR BRM = 300(BB) Big Bets bank roll, SH BRM = 500BB). And if you are only learning then you should seriously play, say 10-20k hands of FR first.

      Study more than you play to start with, post hands you are unsure about in the evaluation forums, watch some of TerrorBlade's FR videos, and you'll at least begin to find some of your leaks.

      Best of luck!
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Thanks for a response,
      Yes I read few PS articles and watched couple of videos, and deposit $150 to play .25/.50 FR. Of course now my bankroll is much smaller (still didn't reach $60 for .10/.20 though) :(
      Also I analyze my sessions in PT3. I cannot say that I didn't win anything, but a tendency is clear. Taking aside bad beats and coolers, I think that theoretically pairing percentage till the river should be a little less than 50%, and I have a feeling I got not more than 25-30%. Plus I never win Big banks. Pocket aces, kings - never. The bigger the bank, always won by somebody else with TT or Q9. Funny fact: in 2 sessions I saw three banks won by TTTT. In 2 I lost and guys won $17+ and $12+ respectively, I also won one for $6 and pennies...
      So the only hope is expecting big, no, Huge up :)
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      He-he, how people say here: Complaining is +EV :)
      Finally got positive session, unexpectedly all big pairs paid and a little more. Could probably win few more BB with some fancy slowplays, but after previous sessions had no patience to wait. Still big room for improvement - still no BIG pots & AKs+KQs=0% :(
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Guys, don't hide your feelings and write posts to Downswing section. In my case fortune changed immediately, and last sessions are all green. I know it may change any minute, but still feel much better when your bankroll looks more appropriate for current limit :)
      Finally won first big bank, and even AKs won few small pots. Strangely enough limit superpowerhands AKs, AQs and KQs are all red :( But now my worst hand is TT, also have problems with middle pairs 66-99. With them I also have problems when playing NL SSS, where TT had winning rate less than 72 against AA (like 11% or so). Seems like they hate me in any Holdem :)
      Anyway you pay much less attention to it when getting green results. Below is my favorite hand where Hero definitely missed cool valuebet on the river:
      Hero BB 62o, 4 limpers and Hero checks,

      ** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, Ac, 8s ]
      Everybody checks
      ** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
      Everybody checks
      ** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
      Everybody checks

      Hero shows [ 6c, 2d ]a pair of Twos.
      *** doesn't show [ Ks, Ts ]high card Ace.
      *** doesn't show [ Qs, Jh ]high card Ace.
      *** doesn't show [ Qd, Jc ]high card Ace.
      *** doesn't show [ Jd, Kd ]high card Ace.
      Hero wins $1.30 USD from the main pot with a pair of Twos :f_biggrin:
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      New site, same problems. After 2 slightly positive sessions, fall down almost 80BB, and that's in FL full ring. Special moment - got AK simultaneously on 3 tables. 2 unimproved, 3rd got K to lose to KK, in a minute got another AK, A on the flop to lose to KJ straight, and immediately painfully lost AQ on flop ATA to - yes - AK :)
      No surprise that among worst hands are both AKo and AKs (last with W$SD 0%), KK is in red, TT red for me as always, and AA is on 14th (!) place in winning-per-hand column.
      I know, I know, variance and so on. But why I never got big plus first? Still let's see if this complain will be same +EV as previous ones :)
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      No immediate response from Fortune this time - another session lost. Aces routinely killed and moved to whopping 26th place with winning at showdown standing at amazing 37% :f_eek: Plus nuts straight running (again?) into TTTT, etc etc.
      Still got something for a smile - a story of a mis-click:
      Hero A9o on CO. UTG+2 limps, Hero raises, SB calls, and UTG+2 calls.
      Flop TA3. Finally Hero flopped something. Paytime? SB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero moves the mouse to click Call, but something stumbles, and Hero FOLDS. And hits the mouse hard.
      Turn 4, SB bets, UTG+2 calls,
      River 9. Hero hits poor mouse again. SB bets, UTG+2 calls, SB shows 33.
      How do I "like" THESE river cards :f_mad: This mis-click alone saved me 3-6 BB. How should I ask Fortune for more of such mis-clicks?
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      Unless you get over the fact that at those stakes you're gonna see big multiway pots and get sucked out on you should go play chess or something.

      There is a lot of variance in FL, you have no doubt played a microscopic sample size and as long as you continue to make the best decisions in all of the given situations you will make money after you've played enough hands.

      At least you aren't against players who will make the very most of the cooler situations or these "set ups" that keep happening to you.

      You're only 40% against 3 random hands with AK, 60% with AA. Work on breathing exercises to calm you down and try play the best you can.
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Yes, I know, distance will solve everything.But if you're not in favor, it only shows you the other side. In last 2 sessions 4(!) times I touched 0 total winnings line, touched from the bottom of course. And all 4 times it pushes me back when it thinks I should belong. Some things are just amazing. Previous session on 7 AKo hands, playing most till river, I got only one K for all 7, and even lost this one too! This session I lost consequently AA, KK, QQ, plus many of really "killer" river cards, like one closing mine nuts straight, and Villain's flush, or one closing my flush (finally?), but giving the Villain a full house. Arghhhh...
      I know I should be calm, and I try. But how tough is keep your cool!

      Be warned! NL may kill you immediately, but FL just slowly cuts your nerves one by one.
    • andrewkd
      andrewkd
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2008 Posts: 108
      Originally posted by poger8
      Some things are just amazing. Previous session on 7 AKo hands, playing most till river, I got only one K for all 7, and even lost this one too!
      I am no expert, but i think i found your leak!!!!

      I play $.1/$.2 FL and i find it amazing how much of a gold mine it can be with players that just can't let go of AA and KK and AK. It's brilliant. Even with a flush heavy board, or 4 cards to a A high straight, no one seems to want to let go in the hope that their pair of A's will hold up in a 4 way pot with 4 cards to a flush draw.

      In the time i have played FL, i find that it has actually helped my NL game a lot, for the fact that it has told me to let go a lot easier. I reckon that i would have saved easily 50BB per 100 hands just by having the ability to let go of hands.

      Another thought, how many FL players have found even 2 pairs winning over AA, KK, QQ. I have had a lot of middle pairs, pair the flop and i have been able to take it down.

      Now unless your playing on the same tables as me, please, learn to let go of hands once in a while, even if you might think they are killers.

      PS, what is you VPIP?
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Sick! 2 more sessions and both again - touch the sky (zero level) and fall! Previous after almost reaching the target - lost next five consecutive (!) playable premium hands: 2 AKs (case of deja vu - on same table one after another 2 AK hearts - and both lost :f_eek: ), KK, JJ and KQ with Q on board. Today it wasn't that fast but reached whopping -36BB during that grand slide. And, yes, AA was lost again to T9o (trips). Of course when I flopped trips, Villain got 7 turn and 7 river to show impressive 7777. I don't know - probably I should stop playing timed sessions, and just turn off poker after next zero touch :f_biggrin:

      Of course AA are not invincible. But they suppose to bring you healthy profit margins. To flop 2 pairs or trips your opponent has only 3.3% chance (1 of 30). Why it happens against me much more often is beyond my understanding. Oh, yeah, distance will return, sure ...

      PS. I don't know if it helps anybody, but my PFR is 12%.
    • taavi1337
      taavi1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2009 Posts: 2,920
      Hi!

      Try to ignore the results. Focus on decisions. If you're in doubt whether you played a hand correctly, post it here: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/board.php?boardid=1383
    • mishkagg
      mishkagg
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2008 Posts: 1,354
      You've got a mindset issue. And you are results oriented. And of course FL has to have more variance than NL. With 4 ppl in a hand instead of 2, what do you expect?
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Thanks guys! I know, I know. In fact, I'm in good shape - I don't depend on poker money financially, rather it really hurts my sporting instincts. Why to play poker, if you're not result-oriented? Every player hopes to WIN, even if playing 27o. Try to find a guy coming solely to distribute his bankroll among needy. No, believe me, even when they call UTG raise with T9o, they probably hope for something :f_biggrin:
      When I considered switching to FL, guys told me it might be even more frustrating. I didn't believe. Now I agree, and let's treat it as a main reason for this blog. So, if deciding what to play - NL or FL, think what you prefer to get in bad times - few heavy hits or bunch of bee stings.
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      I hope you forgive me when I ran away from session reaching 0 point for eights time :f_frown: In fact I was over but start losing again and... still didn't catch the moment: total -1BB :f_eek:
      Lost 2 sets and 2 trips, again and again and again. This is, probably, the highlight of the night:

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, 2
      2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 4 folds, Hero checks.

      Flop: (3.40 SB) 5, 2, 2 (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks. -> who would respond on this board?

      Turn: (1.70 BB) T (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds. -> no sugar too, wait for the river.

      River: (3.70 BB) A (2 players) -> Bingo! Time to raise !?
      Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

      Final Pot: 11.70 BB

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      MP2 shows a full-house, deuces full of aces (Ac 2s)
      Hero shows (Qc 2d)

      MP2 wins with a full-house, deuces full of aces (Ac 2s)
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Finally passed zero line and now sky's the limit? Hard to say - FL can be so frustrating. I just had a small positive :f_biggrin: session where following hands were lost:
      5. Both and only AA,
      4. Second flush to nuts,
      3. Set of 888, four clubs on board,
      2. Full house to upper one
      1. Most frustrating because of my "clever" fold. Raised with JJ, pot was capped, Q on flop and active action. Folded jacks on the river to find nobody had this #$%^& queen....
      Of course next time on board with only KK as upper cards, played JJ till the end, to see other KK in Villain's hand.
      Tough are winnings in FL holdem :f_cool:
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Our little records - during last session FL FR loss reached -100BB mark. Ouch! Lost full initial 30BB stack on one table, and almost lost on 3 others. But when I decided to check how far it may go without mucho tilt, system returned back some losses. Even AA finally won the battle with impressive 4:3 score :f_biggrin:
      But main result is - guess what - I'm again below 0 :f_frown:
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      Last session marked three interesting events:
      1. Collected Royal Flush (2nd in career) :f_cool:
      Couldn't lose at least that hand. In few hands on the same table got Wheel from flop and Royal Wheel gutshot :) Unfortunately it didn't happen, but won that hand anyway. And again lost the session...
      2. Played 10k hands on FL FR on current limit.
      3. Basically finish them in Zero (excluding bonus). One poker site gave me an A, but it wasn't enough for positive play. Ok, with glowing heart, let next 10K start!
    • ukcoolcat
      ukcoolcat
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 167
      Originally posted by poger8
      I hope you forgive me when I ran away from session reaching 0 point for eights time :f_frown: In fact I was over but start losing again and... still didn't catch the moment: total -1BB :f_eek:
      Lost 2 sets and 2 trips, again and again and again. This is, probably, the highlight of the night:

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, 2
      2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 4 folds, Hero checks.

      Flop: (3.40 SB) 5, 2, 2 (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks. -> who would respond on this board?

      Turn: (1.70 BB) T (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds. -> no sugar too, wait for the river.

      River: (3.70 BB) A (2 players) -> Bingo! Time to raise !?
      Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

      Final Pot: 11.70 BB

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      MP2 shows a full-house, deuces full of aces (Ac 2s)
      Hero shows (Qc 2d)

      MP2 wins with a full-house, deuces full of aces (Ac 2s)
      pre flop was standard.

      on the flop you hit trips, why didn't you bet out? why try and slowplay?

      ok mp2 had trips as well, but you could've saved yourself some bets by leading out and adjust your play accordingly, slowplaying will only get you into trouble and can be a HUGE leak.

      it would seem that you are getting yourself into certain situations by playing poorly then blaming it on variance or bad suckouts.
    • poger8
      poger8
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 207
      >>on the flop you hit trips, why didn't you bet out? why try and slowplay?
      Because on unraised boards and such flops when you bet first into 2 opps, in 75% they would fold.

      >>slowplaying will only get you into trouble and can be a HUGE leak.
      I know, and try not to do it. But when you've flopped few nuts or close, and everybody folds on your first bet, you start challenging this wisdom :)